Knowing Christ without the Sacred Scriptures

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Jul 30 2005, 12:19 PM']From your own mouth you have rejected the divinity of Jesus Christ, further proving the fact that you are not a Catholic in any way, shape, or form.  Some of the most heterdox Catholics I know even acknowledge Jesus's divinity, you on the other hand, do not.  You are only posing as a "Catholic" in a desperate attempt to gain credibility, and/or to mock the very faith that has stood for 2,000 years.  You my friend, are a [b]poser[/b].

If a suspended, and discharged U.S. Army soldier proclaimed that he was still a soldier of the Army, he would not only look rather arrogant and foolish, but also stupid.  Your case pretty much parallels with his.

Your own self-constructed, secular humanistic, "theological" doctrine is not only dangerous, but a masterpiece of error.

Have a nice day.
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RESPONSE:

Never heard of "An Army of One, " eh!

[Paladin D]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 30 2005, 01:15 PM']I like my example of the "tradition" of St. Peter living in Brooklyn and having a halo.

I could  then claim that  "everybody knows this tradition and it has been believed from the time of the Apostles." Moreover, since nothing in the New Testament says this isn't so, it must be true!  Therefore, everybody has to believe this, don't they? And they are not good Catholics and going straight to hell it they don't, right? 
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One problem, [b]Brooklyn didn't exist till 1646[/b].

EDIT: Also, may I remind you that when people claim "It's Tradition and it was believed from the time of the Apostles", they usually back it up.

Edited July 30, 2005 by Paladin D

[Paladin D]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 30 2005, 01:23 PM']RESPONSE:

Never heard of "An Army of One, " eh!
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Actually, I may be joining the U.S. Army, so I've heard that motto countless times. One of the ideals in the army is to work as a team, as one coherent force. Though it seems you are reluctant and rather stubborn to acknowledge such an ideal. Where does this lead you? "An Army of No-one"

If you disgard the values and ideals of the U.S. Army, [b]you are gone![/b]

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Jul 30 2005, 12:24 PM']One problem, [b]Brooklyn didn't exist till 1646[/b].

EDIT:  Also, may I remind you that when people claim "It's Tradition and it was believed from the time of the Apostles", they usually back it up.
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RESPONSE:

Really? Please back up the "tradition" that Mary was assumed into heaven. Start with any evidence you have before the late fourth century.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Jul 30 2005, 12:34 PM']Actually, I may be joining the U.S. Army, so I've heard that motto countless times.  One of the ideals in the army is to work as a team, as one coherent force.  Though it seems you are reluctant and rather stubborn to acknowledge such an ideal.  Where does this lead you?  "An Army of No-one"

If you disgard the values and ideals of the U.S. Army, [b]you are gone![/b]
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RESPONSE:

I take it that you don't want to debate the original topic so are bringing up a red herring.

Something like "Are you attacking the flag?"

But if it makes you feel any better, I'm a Vietnam era veteran. After three years in the Army and twenty-five years in the Air Force (I looked so much better in blue!), I really don't think you can teach me anything new about "ideals."

Perhaps you would like to try a different red herring???? :

[LittleLes]

The historical sources for information on Jesus can be divided into two basic categoies, Christian and nonChristian. (The difficulty with the nonChristian sources is that over time many of them passed through Christian hands while being copied).

Christian Sources:

A large number of gospels four of which became "canonical:"
Synoptics:
Matthew
Mark
Luke
Gospel of John
Paul and Pauline Epistles
Other Epistles
Acts of the Apostles
Revelation
Various Gnostic writings (recently discovered)

NonChristian Sources:

Josephus (a Jewish historian)
Tacitus
Pliny the Younger
Suetonius
(Perhaps) Lucian of Samosata

Any additions or deletions or arguments for or against?

[Socrates]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 29 2005, 09:05 PM']RESPONSE:

Not being a true believer and although Catholic, not a partaker in the traditional  true believer inquisitions,  I  decline to play your game.

However, if you want to start a legitimate thread on the historical Jesus and what we can know of him, that's different.

And before you continue with your logical flaw of reasoning from the particular to the general without a sufficient data base (called faulty inference), I have not claimed that all scripture is fictional in nature. But it does contain quite a bit of fiction (eg. the nativity narratives in the New Testament). The hard part is to separate the fiction from the historical. But in some cases, it's easy.

However, when one does so, no matter how convincing the evidence, some apologist (which is the top of the heap in true believer circles) will attempt to use a flawed but creative argument to support the party line. And then, of course, claim that he has won.  He has to. He can never admit any error no matter what the evidence.
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What is so difficult about giving your honest beliefs and explaining yourself, rather than playing semantic games? You expect everyone to play your games and play by your rules, yet whenever anyone asks you a reasonable question regarding why you consider yourself Catholic, and what your intentions are, you consistently refuse to answer and start with the snarky "inquisition" and "true-believer" lines.

Hey, there's nothing to be afraid of, LittleLes! No one's going to burn you at the stake!

And so you won't give the old "shotgun" line, I'll ask one question at a time, starting with:

If the Catholic Church is based on lies and fiction (as you claim), why should one be a member? What is the purpose of being part of the Catholic Church?

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 31 2005, 02:06 PM']

If the Catholic Church is based on lies and fiction (as you claim), why should one be a member?  What is the purpose of being part of the Catholic Church?
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RESPONSE:

You should learn to avoid the either-or fallacy in your reasoning.

[LittleLes]

Your own self-constructed, secular humanistic, "theological" doctrine is not only dangerous, but a masterpiece of error.

Have a nice day.

[/quote]

RESPONSE:

Once again, do you have any evidence to offer in rebuttal, or only assertions without evidence???

[Socrates]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 31 2005, 02:35 PM']RESPONSE:

You should learn to avoid the either-or fallacy in your reasoning.
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Well, well, yet another instance of completely avoiding answering the question. Keeping up a solid track record on this, aren't we?

Since this is apparently very difficult for you, I'll try to make the question even simpler.

Why, according to you, should one be a member of the Catholic Church?

(This is not an "either or" question! And let's see if you can give a real, honest answer, rather than some wisecrack.)

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 31 2005, 02:49 PM']

Why, according to you, should one be a member of the Catholic Church?

(This is not an "either or" question!    And let's see if you can give a real, honest answer, rather than some wisecrack.)
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RESPONSE:

The sermons are usually short and the air conditioning works! :

And since your question is clearly off the topic "Knowing Christ without the sacred scriptures," in case you've forgotten. Perhaps you would like to start a thread on this topic.

Of course it would be quite lengthy.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 30 2005, 08:21 PM']RESPONSE:

Really? Please back up the "tradition" that Mary was assumed into heaven. Start with any evidence you have before the late fourth century.
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That is off-topic, you'll have to create another thread for that.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 30 2005, 08:28 PM']RESPONSE:

I take it that you don't want to debate the original topic so are bringing up  a red herring.

Something like "Are you attacking the flag?" 

But if it makes you feel any better, I'm a Vietnam era veteran.  After three years in the Army and twenty-five years in the Air Force (I looked so much better in blue!), I really don't think you can teach me anything new about "ideals."

Perhaps you would like to try  a different red herring???? :
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If you already knew about "ideals", you would clearly see how your position is illogical; a "Catholic" who does not even attempt to follow one single doctrine of the Church. I know several athiests who would not even understand why you would continue to associate yourself with such a religious institution. A terrorist who claims to be a U.S. Ranger, that's a new one.

I'm assuming you're either in your late 40's or early 50's. It would seem someone with your military experience and age, would be expected to have a higher level of maturity; I suppose this proves that age (and military experience) is most definately not always a sign of such.

[Paladin D]

[b]Littleles[/b], by what you have made evident in this thread, would it be accurate to say that your belief is: [b][i]Jesus was a real historical person, but not the messiah.[/b][/i]

If there is something else I'm missing, please state it.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Aug 1 2005, 12:23 AM']If you already knew about "ideals", you would clearly see how your position is illogical; a "Catholic" who does not even attempt to follow one single doctrine of the Church.  I know several athiests who would not even understand why you would continue to associate yourself with such a religious institution.  A terrorist who claims to be a U.S. Ranger, that's a new one.

I'm assuming you're either in your late 40's or early 50's.  It would seem someone with your military experience and age, would be expected to have a higher level of maturity; I suppose this proves that age (and military experience) is most definately not always a sign of such.
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RESPONSE:

"If you already knew about "ideals. " you would clearly see how your position is completely illogical."

That's an absolutely illogical statement.

Age and military experience need not be a sign of maturity. Only of aging. :

I rememeber the old song. "I want to be a Ranger." And people wanting to jump out of perfectly good airplanes! Is that mature????? :