ironmonk Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 (edited) It saddens me when I see the hate of the Catholic Church greater than the love someone has for Christ. Many of us have seen this on this board... an anti-Catholic continues to argue against the Church, constantly changing the subject everytime there is a reasonable answer given by the Catholic Church to the attack made. Then, when that anti-Catholic cannot find the answers in history that they are correct, and all they find is that they are wrong, and they still deny the Catholic Church. When all the answers that they have researched all show the Catholic Church as being correct then they simply say something like "The Church is wrong no matter what I find". Totally ignoring what appears to be true... saying that it can't be true, even though everything shows that the Catholic Church is true... this shows us that the hate for the Church is greater than their love for Christ and I believe that they have no right to call themselves Christian. Logic and reason demand that if something appears to be true and all answers found show something to be true, then that is true until proven wrong... if in the future we find it to be false, then it is not our fault for following what appears to be true, BUT if we reject what appears to be the truth about Christ then we are rejecting Christ in our heart. By rejecting what appears to be true we embrace what we know is a lie. If we are not in the Catholic Church because of the lies told to us about the Catholic Church it is not our fault, but it is our fault if on examing all the facts we find that the Catholic Church appears to be true and reject it... There will be no chance of salvation for those who reject the one's sent by Christ. If someone is anti-Catholic with pride so great to think that they cannot be wrong about God, that they haven't been burned in a debate with Catholics when it is a fact that they couldn't find the answers to all the questions and the Catholic Church does have an answer to all the questions, then they would be a fool for rejecting what appears to be true. If a reasonable answer cannot be found from the the anti-Catholics side, and there were reasonable answers from the Catholic side and the anti-Catholic simply says "I don't believe it" - goes to show that their love for Christ is weaker than their hate for the Catholic Church. [b]Luke 10:16[/b] "[color=red]He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me[/color]" Think about it. If it looks true, and there is an answer for every attack, and none of them contradict another answer, then it must be true until proven wrong. You have a choice, accept the ones sent by Christ, or reject them. [b]St. Matt 10:22 [/b] [color=red]You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved. [/color] [b]St. Matt 24:13 [/b] [color=red]But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved[/color]. If we reject the truth, then we have not persevered to the end. [b]1 Corin. 13:4 [/b] [u][b]Love is [/b][/u]patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated, [b]5 [/b]it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, [b]6 [/b][u][b]it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth[/b][/u]. Are you rejoicing in the wrongdoing of rumors or are you rejoicing with the truth? One who rejoices in the wrongdoing of knowingly rejecting what appears to be true has more hate for the Church than love for Christ. Your conscience will convict you if the above fits you. You know who you are. If I am wrong it would be easy to prove the Catholic Church wrong. If I am correct, then you will not be able to prove the Church wrong. If you cannot prove the Catholic Church wrong, and still remain non-Catholic, then you have proven me right. Feeling offended? If what I wrote is true, then yes, you will feel offended. That should say something to you that the Church could be right. If everything looks like it is true, then you have an abligation to Christ to follow the truth. If you are thinking "Is ironmonk talking to me?" - then you should think about this long and hard... about what the word "true" means... Do you think that Christ would want you to reject something that appeared to be true even though you might not want it to be true? Is life about what we want, or about what we do for Christ? God Bless, ironmonk Edited July 27, 2005 by ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Knight Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 Most people agrue out of ignorance from what Ive seen, they have no reason nor any idea why they hate the Catholic CHurch so they just bash it. unfortunately there aren't very many people I know like me who are willing to learn about the faith instead of bashing it, who wanna embrace it. Embrace the fullyness of Christ's Love. I wanna know more about God, and the Catholic Church has the abosolute truth about God. which really attracts me too it. Thats my point. God Bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesChristi Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 [quote]Most people agrue out of ignorance from what Ive seen,[/quote] Well said, friend. "There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church" ---Archbishop Fulton Sheen, Servant of God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Knight Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 So I think Ironmonk is also refering to some phatmassers, but I wont say their names. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Jul 26 2005, 08:09 PM']It saddens me when I see the hate of the Catholic Church greater than the love someone has for Christ. Many of us have seen this on this board... an anti-Catholic continues to argue against the Church, constantly changing the subject everytime there is a reasonable answer given by the Catholic Church to the attack made. [/quote] RESPONSE: Reasonable answers? Like you "have to believe it" because it's "tradition."? But it cerainly is unreasonable to waste time answering irrational arguments. It makes more sense to ignor obvious nonsense and move on:cool: It's possible, therfore, it has to be so (ie. Was there a brass band at the Resurrection and did Peter have a halo and live in Brooklyn? - all are "possible" and no one can quote scripture to the contrary). : I've seen many answers attempted, but very few reasonable answers given. I suppose that's what happens when someone has to defend a belief system in spite of all reasonable evidence to the contrary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 (edited) [quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 27 2005, 07:12 AM']RESPONSE: Reasonable answers? Like you "have to believe it" because it's "tradition."? But it cerainly is unreasonable to waste time answering irrational arguments. It makes more sense to ignor obvious nonsense and move on:cool: It's possible, therfore, it has to be so (ie. Was there a brass band at the Resurrection and did Peter have a halo and live in Brooklyn? - all are "possible" and no one can quote scripture to the contrary). : I've seen many answers attempted, but very few reasonable answers given. I suppose that's what happens when someone has to defend a belief system in spite of all reasonable evidence to the contrary. [right][snapback]660664[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Les, you don't even read our arguments (nobody has ever told you that you must believe because it's tradition, you're making it up). Wake up man , you haven't advanced a [i]single[/i] reasonable argument [i]yet[/i]. Nobody has changed their minds at your prompting, and most people have begun to ignore you. Anytime anyone bothers to answer you, they are blown off and the subject is changed, all in a condescending tone as if the person paying attention to you is worthless . You call our arguments nonsense... well at least you know how we feel. Edited July 27, 2005 by thedude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted July 27, 2005 Author Share Posted July 27, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 27 2005, 08:12 AM']RESPONSE: Reasonable answers? Like you "have to believe it" because it's "tradition."? But it cerainly is unreasonable to waste time answering irrational arguments. It makes more sense to ignor obvious nonsense and move on:cool: [/quote] Your answer proves my point. If you think the only answer you received is "because it's tradition" then one of three things is the reason: 1) You missed a lot here. 2) You have spoken to unknowledgable Catholics. 3) You have totally ignored all the Catholic sites that explain the faith. Just because you don't like the answers given does not mean that they are unreasonable. Unless you can come up with better answers that DO NOT conflict with other answers along with historical facts, then you would prove yourself wrong. I wish you knew the bible... [b]2 Timoty 3:14 [/b] But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it, "Because from whom you learned it"? What could that possibly mean? How did Luther, Knox, Calvin, etc... remain faithful to what they learned because from whom they learned it?! "We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all." ~ Martin Luther, Commentary on St. John [b]2 Thess 2:15[/b] Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours The bible contradicts you on tradition. [b]1 Corin 11:2 [/b] I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you. Again, it contradicts you. There is more, but I thought these two were enough. [quote]It's possible, therfore, it has to be so (ie. Was there a brass band at the Resurrection and did Peter have a halo and live in Brooklyn? - all are "possible" and no one can quote scripture to the contrary). : I've seen many answers attempted, but very few reasonable answers given. I suppose that's what happens when someone has to defend a belief system in spite of all reasonable evidence to the contrary. [right][snapback]660664[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Simple logic.... 1.) Christ said the Church would never be overcome St. Matt 16:18-19. Therefore if one believes Christ then the one faith made by Christ would have been around in 33 AD, 400 AD, 2005 AD, 2010 AD, etc... 2.) Christ said the Church would be like a city on the mountain for all to see. St. Matt 5:13-15. Therefore the true Church would be visiable for people to find and learn of Christ. 3.) Christ told the Apostles to make disciples of nations and promised that He would be with them until the end of age. St. Matt 28:18-20 Only the Catholic Church has been making disciples of nations for 2000 years, no other group that claims to be Christian and is around today existed until after 1517 AD. 3.) Christ promised that the Church would be guided by the Holy Spirit in all truth, that the Holy Spirit would guide the Church, and teach the Church. St. John 14. The Church is alive and there is only One Faith that the Holy Spirit guides. God does not cause division, the devil does. All offshots of the Catholic Church are not by God. 4.) Christ promised the Church that those who hear them hear Him, and that those who reject them, reject Him. St. Luke 10:16 Given this verse and St. John 14, shows that there will be an infallible teaching authority. Only the Catholic Church teachings match up with the bible. 5.) If a teaching of faith is contraditory to what the first Christians wrote then we know it to be false. Only the Catholic Church does not contradict the teachings of the first Christians. Only the Catholic Church teachings can be clearly seen through history since the first century. 6.) It was the Catholic Church guided by the Holy Spirit that selected the books of the New Testament around 400 AD. [b]If the Church is wrong then prove it. Prove it with Scripture, the First Christian writings, and by showing us with the Catechism where the Church is wrong. If the Church is wrong then out of your responsibility as a Christian you must save us from the lies about the faith. We are our brothers keeper. You have no right to shake the dust off your feet unless you can prove the Church wrong with the criteria of what the true faith is. The True Faith would have been around since 33 AD... so show us..[/b] You can even look up our rebuttals so you'll know what to write when we rebut.... [url="http://www.ScriptureCatholic.com"]http://www.ScriptureCatholic.com[/url] [url="http://www.Catholic.com"]http://www.Catholic.com[/url] [url="http://www.USCCB.org"]http://www.USCCB.org[/url] Get the facts. God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 [quote name='thedude' date='Jul 27 2005, 07:13 AM']Les, you don't even read our arguments (nobody has ever told you that you must believe because it's tradition, you're making it up). [/quote] Really? Lets refer to a statment on another thread. "I answered you; the four Gospels were tradition handed on to later generations of the Church. " Sound familiar? It should. It's yours. I find its prudent not even to waste time responding to this type of argument and any others that can immediately seen to be as flawed. True Believers usually have to remain True Believers for psychological reasons, as pointed out by Eric Hoffer in his book of the same name. But as for myself, I believe that "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." But maybe not so the true believers. They need to reject the evidence , no matter how clear, that doesn't support their party line. : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 27 2005, 11:24 AM']They need to reject the evidence , no matter how clear, that doesn't support their party line. : [right][snapback]660860[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Sounds like you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 27 2005, 11:24 AM']Really? Lets refer to a statment on another thread. "I answered you; the four Gospels were tradition handed on to later generations of the Church. " Sound familiar? It should. It's yours. I find its prudent not even to waste time responding to this type of argument and any others that can immediately seen to be as flawed. True Believers usually have to remain True Believers for psychological reasons, as pointed out by Eric Hoffer in his book of the same name. But as for myself, I believe that "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." But maybe not so the true believers. They need to reject the evidence , no matter how clear, that doesn't support their party line. : [right][snapback]660860[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Saying something has been believed since the beginning and [u]providing evidence[/u] for it is very different from saying "it's tradition so believe it" . My quote above was just a reference to a previous post, which you failed to include here . Consequently, that was one of the threads I refused to continue with you. : Sure, it's psychological; [i]I'm[/i] the one who's delusional and [i]I'm[/i] the one advancing ridiculous arguments. [i]I[/i] can't listen to the other side because [i]I[/i] need to support a "party line." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirklawd Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 27 2005, 06:12 AM']RESPONSE: Reasonable answers? Like you "have to believe it" because it's "tradition."? But it cerainly is unreasonable to waste time answering irrational arguments. It makes more sense to ignor obvious nonsense and move on:cool: It's possible, therfore, it has to be so (ie. Was there a brass band at the Resurrection and did Peter have a halo and live in Brooklyn? - all are "possible" and no one can quote scripture to the contrary). : I've seen many answers attempted, but very few reasonable answers given. I suppose that's what happens when someone has to defend a belief system in spite of all reasonable evidence to the contrary. [right][snapback]660664[/snapback][/right] [/quote] hey, HOW ABOUT.. you go to THIS THREAD: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=36429&st=50"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...pic=36429&st=50[/url] and repsond to the LIST of points you are currently ignoring. and seriously, when has ANYONE here said "because its tradition" to anything that you said? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirklawd Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 (edited) double post, internet hiccup Edited July 27, 2005 by Sirklawd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 [quote name='Sirklawd' date='Jul 27 2005, 11:30 AM']hey, HOW ABOUT.. you go to THIS THREAD: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=36429&st=50"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...pic=36429&st=50[/url] and repsond to the LIST of points you are currently ignoring. and seriously, when has ANYONE here said "because its tradition" to anything that you said? [right][snapback]661013[/snapback][/right] [/quote] RESPONSE: I evidenced above that Dude made that statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirklawd Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 (edited) ill pay you 20$ to go to that other thread and respond to the stuff you are ignoring. Edited July 27, 2005 by Sirklawd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 [quote name='Sirklawd' date='Jul 27 2005, 12:56 PM']ill pay you 20$ to go to that other thread and respond to the stuff you are ignoring. [right][snapback]661055[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Give me the $20 bucks and I'll respond for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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