Anna Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 When you bow your head and pray before eating a big bowl of mac and coagulated milk, are you worshipping the mac'n'coagulated milk? dUSt, don't answer. We all know that YOU worship mac 'n' coagulated milk! Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 It's an image that is worshipped en lieu of God. A statue of Mary or a Saint is used to worship God. Not the saint or Mary. They remind us, point us towards Christ's sacrifice and Lordship by their example. Plus they can intercede for us before the throne of God. If I was kneeling before a pile of $20 bills and asking them to help me become more wealthy, or an image of a girl and desiring some you-know-what (not necessarily with her). That would be troublesome. And definately graven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 It's an image that is worshipped en lieu of God. A statue of Mary or a Saint is used to worship God. Not the saint or Mary. They remind us, point us towards Christ's sacrifice and Lordship by their example. Plus they can intercede for us before the throne of God. If I was kneeling before a pile of $20 bills and asking them to help me become more wealthy, or an image of a girl and desiring some you-know-what (not necessarily with her). That would be troublesome. And definately graven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted November 20, 2003 Author Share Posted November 20, 2003 Well, getting the same answer about 5 or 6 times over is enough Ironmonk, I was getting to miss you're remarks that often left me frustrated. I see they are back! I don't know if you went over the whole statue thing 8 months ago. Maybe you did. I know that you know there is a great deal to Catholicism, and once in a while you have to relearn something. --- Oh, and as I'm reading the catachism I haven't found anything yet that is anti-biblical. Many things that are "un-biblical", but drats, so are the pews in our Baptist Church, so I can't get you there. --- I really hope none of you think I'm attacking the Catholic Church in my questions. I see a little bit of hostility in certian posts. There is a lot of work to be done folks. It is my hope one day to actually see the damage that has been done by splitting up the Christian church undone. Patience though is definitely a virtue in all that. Patience and Prayer and Strength. Oh, and if it makes anyone feel better I corrected my pastor in church on his teaching of what he thought purgatory is (he taught the church that it was a process to earn your way into heaven after death) God Bless Bro. Adam, at the library. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 (edited) Oh, and as I'm reading the catachism I haven't found anything yet that is anti-biblical. Many things that are "un-biblical", but drats, so are the pews in our Baptist Church, so I can't get you there. You will not find anything that is anti-biblical. And everything in the Catechism is biblical. Nothing is un-biblical. The fact that the bible canon came from the Catholic Church. The fact that the Bible states that the Pillar and Foundation of Truth is the Church (1 Tim 3:15) The fact that Peter was the Rock. (St. Matt 16:18-19, St. John 1:42) The fact that Peter was the leader after Jesus left. (St. John 21:15-17) The fact that Jesus gave the Keys to Heaven to Peter. (St. Matt 16:19) Shows that the Catholic Church teachings are all biblical. A better study would be "How does the Scripture teach Catholicism?"... for the bible is Catholic. See, it's not a arguement of the chicken before the egg, because we have historical facts that show us what Church was started by Christ, and where the Canon of the Bible came from. I say this with concern... Why do you fight it? So many things that you have found the truth about cannot be answered by any other Church. To many facts have been presented to you for you to be protected by ignorance of not knowing which Church was founded by Christ. God gave you a mind to think and realize the Truth... if you do not understand everything, but you understand some things, and those things that you understand you only see the Catholic Church teaching them, then you owe it to Christ to actively seek to enter His Church. You know that the Church built by Christ will never be overcome.(St. Matt 16:18-19) You know that the Church must be visable so that mankind will have a chance to know Christ. (St. Matt 5:13-15) You know that the Church built by Christ has the power to forgive sins, and no where in the bible was that taken away.(St. John 20:23) You know that the Church built by Christ will be of One Faith... i.e. One Teaching... (Eph. 4:5) The Catholic Church is the only Church that can answer all questions under scrutiny against it.... all other fail... even if only for the simple fact that they started after 1517 AD. And the Dontist, Anabaptist, etc... argument is blown out of the water when we look at what each group taught... they where not One Faith. Why is it that all the anti-Catholics out there all have conflicting teachings about what the Catholic Church teaches? They can't get their stories straight... this must speak volumes to you. Given all the facts which you have, and I would think that you believe them, because you haven't refuted them.... I simply do not understand how or why you would choose to stay outside of the Catholic Church. Love in Christ - Your Servant in Christ, ironmonk Edited November 20, 2003 by ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marielapin Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Bro Adam, the reason you might be seeing some hostility is that since you've been gone we've had some rather hostile protestant visitors. Our newbies don't know how sweet and understanding you are and so are probably expecting the same thing again. We aren't all perfect, ya know. And Ironmonk, seriously, lay off Adam. A change of heart takes time. One cannot unlearn all they have learned overnight. Keep asking the good questions, Adam! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Ironmonk, I was getting to miss you're remarks that often left me frustrated. QUOTE IronMonk Given all the facts which you have, and I would think that you believe them, because you haven't refuted them.... I simply do not understand how or why you would choose to stay outside of the Catholic Church. It appears the feeling is mutual! Oh, and if it makes anyone feel better I corrected my pastor in church on his teaching of what he thought purgatory is Way to go, Bro Adam. How did your pastor take to being corrected? Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Hello, Bro Adam. Glad to have you back among us. Did you give up on theSpirit of Catholicism? And Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic? Or didn't feel inclined to read them? Just wondering. No answer expected. When I was a Protestant, I was a Bible worshipper. I used to kneel often in front of my open bible and pray with my head bowed. But if anyone was watching, it was hard for them to tell whether I was worshipping my bed or my chair or my Bible. :D The Protestants renumbered the Commandments to make "graven images" a separate Second Commandment, aimed at the Catholic Church, of course. Then they combined two other Commandments so they would still come out to ten. The First Commandment for Catholics (and some but not all Jews) is "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me." (The rest, including 'graven images,' is commentary on that main point.) The Second Commandment is, "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain." Some Jews consider "I am the Lord thy God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage" as the First, and "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me" as the Second Commandment. The Third is then "...the name of the Lord thy God in vain." "Graven image" NEVER stands alone in Jewish usage, but is always part of "no other Gods," and is the same for Catholics. For Protestants as well as Catholics, the first Commandment is the same. But for Protestants, the Second Commandment is "Thou shalt not make unto thyself a graven image." "Graven image" is broadly interpreted by the Catholic Church as anyone or anything that is worshipped other than the One Almighty Triune God (wealth, cars, beauty, nature, self, etc.). Modern Jewish translations say "sculptured" rather than "graven." Websters says the word means carved or sculptured. JMJ Likos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Bro Adam, the reason you might be seeing some hostility is that since you've been gone we've had some rather hostile protestant visitors. Our newbies don't know how sweet and understanding you are and so are probably expecting the same thing again. However this doesn't excuse it. Excuse us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 Glad to have you here Brother Adam! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 this may not even be necessary--but, just in case it is--one "image" that catholics DO bow down in front of w/ the FULL INTENT of worshipping is the Holy Eucharist. BUT, this is b/c catholics believe that, that single wafer is more than just an image, but the actual body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ! (ahh, i love saying that last part!). actually, when i go to Eucharistic Adoration i'm not even bowing down......i'm on my freakin face, totally humbling myself before the Lord. would you not do the same in the very presence of your Lord? man, i love the Eucharist.... pax christi, nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 this may not even be necessary--but, just in case it is--one "image" that catholics DO bow down in front of w/ the FULL INTENT of worshipping is the Holy Eucharist. BUT, this is b/c catholics believe that, that single wafer is more than just an image, but the actual body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ! (ahh, i love saying that last part!). actually, when i go to Eucharistic Adoration i'm not even bowing down......i'm on my freakin face, totally humbling myself before the Lord. would you not do the same in the very presence of your Lord? man, i love the Eucharist.... pax christi, nick Freakin, my language inDouche. B) Unfortunately I can't attend a parish, which totally smells of elderberries... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 why can't u attend a parish? (sorry, i'm new to the group) man, that does kinda smell of elderberries huh? somethin else that "smells of elderberries" is when the parish that you are lucky enough to attend is not passionate about the Eucharist, and then u have these big blocks of time where the Holy Eucharist is being exposed but noone is there to worship b/c noone cares enough! grrrr..... deep breaths........ok.........i'm better now. nice to meet you btw :D pax christi, nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 why can't u attend a parish? (sorry, i'm new to the group) man, that does kinda smell of elderberries huh? somethin else that "smells of elderberries" is when the parish that you are lucky enough to attend is not passionate about the Eucharist, and then u have these big blocks of time where the Holy Eucharist is being exposed but noone is there to worship b/c noone cares enough! grrrr..... deep breaths........ok.........i'm better now. nice to meet you btw :D pax christi, nick Nice to meet ya dude. To make a long story short, I'll put it in a general time table. - Born in hospital, baptized by a Catholic Priest (it was unclear if I were to survive, born premature) - Raised with some Catholicism, but mainly went to Pentecostal and AoG churches. Parents were born and raised Catholic, but never fully got into it as much. - My family decided to go to a Catholic parish right behind my old home for 3 years, from 11 to 13 years of age. Though still ignorant to many of the teachings, and so were my parents (despite growing up with it). And to top it off, I partook of the Eucharist many times, not knowing it was really Christ. - Around the beginning of 2003, I slowly started to get very interested in the Catholic Church. Note, I didn't hate it before hand... but I disagreed with a lot of it's doctrines. - Thanks to an Anti-Catholic history book I used, it made me even more curious to do my research on the Catholic Church and it's teachings. (History book was a Protestant one, A Beka) - I researched more and more about the Catholic Church, through Catholic sources. Over time, I slowly started to see Thee Truth, though I had some trouble accepting some doctrines at first. Though oddly enough some I already believed in personally, before even discovering that the Catholic Church taught it! - Soon enough, I found Phatmass through Catholic.org... and been here ever since. Note: I had no idea I was baptized by a Catholic priest, till a couple months ago. But when I'm able to attend a parish, I'll have to get a conditional baptism. My family is dominately Protestant aligned, with some Catholicism. They are not anti-Catholic, but they disagree with some issues of the Church. They are ignorant to many of it's teachings. So I'm forced to remain without a parish, without Sacraments, and do the best I can seperated from my Catholic brothers and sisters (well I got the internet). Not saying non-Catholic Christians aren't brothers or sisters, but we don't always see eye to eye on things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 What's scary is, I didn't even have First Communion or Confirmation... Yet I partook in the Eucharist! I went to Confession once, but I don't remember if it was "first confession" or just an ordinary one. Plus I was very young, nervous, and I didn't confess my sins properlly. So it wasn't valid (thats what I remember, compared to what a Confession really is). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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