Brother Adam Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 (edited) Yep. I know. you're thinking "Oh Great, Bro. Adam is back with all of his questions". I know you! B) okay, so the Angel that John records in Revelation sounds like he's ready to smack John around for trying to worship the him. The Angel tells John not to bow down to him, but only to worship God, because the angel is a fellow servant. How does the faithful Catholic explain bowing down to statues of the Saints and Mary? I know that some Catholics will say that they do not worship the Saints or Mary, some say they do worship Mary in a "special way", and so forth. We know that both Mary and the saints are servants to God. Is bowing or kneeling an act of worship? have fun! Edited November 19, 2003 by Brother Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 If you recal, John thought that the Angel was God. That was the point. We KNOW Mary isn't. Our "kneeling" before a statue, isn't paying hommage to the statue any more than you are worshipping your bed when you kneel in front of it. Had John in intention bowed to the Angel as a gesture of courtesy rather than thinking he was God, then I don't think the Angel would have done anything. In other words, John bowed down due to fear of the Lord. The Angel in essence was saying, don't fear me, I'm not God. It's all about intention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 By the way... Take your shoes off and stay a while. Sheesh. You just poke your head in and don't even say hi! Dude, tell us how married life is. I wanna know what's up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicAndFanatical Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Hello Bro Adam, glad to see you are still around. I cant speak for everyone, just myself. But when I kneel to pray, its in reverence for God the Almighty. I might ask Mary to interceed for me, to ask Jesus what im about to ask Jesus. I personally have never knelt directly in front of a Mary Statue or any other Saint for that matter. Yea they are in front of me, but so is the Crucifix and the Tabernacle. Besides, John didnt kneel, he feel prostrate on the ground as if Dead. Thats how we should be with God and God only..kneeling however, is the way we pray. I dont feel complete when I pray unless i kneel, unless im somewhere where I cannot kneel. but this is just me. i only speak for myself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted November 19, 2003 Author Share Posted November 19, 2003 thanks for the response. jake, please see mythread in the openmic area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 When I curtsied to the Queen I did not think she was God. When I salute the flag I don't think it is God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted November 19, 2003 Author Share Posted November 19, 2003 (edited) Hi Catholic. that's what i love about you Catholics (refering to that you 'speak for yourself'). if you say something that is against your churches teaching I can correct you on the matterand there is nothing you can do about it. ;) Edited November 19, 2003 by Brother Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Gus Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Yes, we do bow towards statues. Why? Do you have a photo of someone you love? And do you use that photo to remind you of that person whom you love? Same thing with statues. Just as the photo itself is not the person that you love, neither is the statue the person that we love, but simply a device that we use to help us to focus our human faculties on a person. We pay homage to Saints (especially Mary) and so we use statues of these people to remind us of the person to whom we are paying homage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted November 19, 2003 Author Share Posted November 19, 2003 Hi uncle gus, never met you before. what to a catholic, is a 'graven image'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Gus Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 I don't think I'm qualified to answer that, but I'd say that it's any material thing that is set up in place of God. P.S. Hi ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicAndFanatical Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Hi Catholic. that's what i love about you Catholics (refering to that you 'speak for yourself'). if you say something that is against your churches teaching I can correct you on the matterand there is nothing you can do about it.  I wasnt referring to myself to get out of being proven wrong. If I say somethign contrary to Church Teachings I would hope you did correct me. But my fear of being corrected is the least of my problems. What is important Adam is that the Church does not teach that those statues have power in itself and that we dont worship that statue. I would be happy to correct myself if you could show me in the Catechism where it says that we are to worship statues and pray TO them. Actually, i'll go farther and say that if you can prove the Catechism wrong and contrary to the Bible I will become a Bro. Adam Jr. You want to know why we Catholics do what we do, just open a Catechism, that holds the Teachings of the Church and if you see someone do something contrary to the Catechism then they are not following Church teachings.. plain and simple. God Bless, CatholicAndFanatical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Hi uncle gus, never met you before. what to a catholic, is a 'graven image'? Anything you worship instead of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Bro, I just read it... I must have missed it. That's so good! Well, I wont' take this thread off topic. The point everyone is trying to make is that: 1) What John did, we don't do. He mistook the Angel for God (not really his fault, but that's why the Angel reprimanded him). We know who is God, and we know the Saints aint Him. 2.) What we do in no way is against the 1st Commandment. What we do can be likened to what the Israelites did in front of the broze serpent, or the Ark of the Covenant. Our statues aren't meant for their own worship, as if the actual statue of Mary (let alone Mary herself) was some god. That's what they did at the base of Mount Sini (sp?). Statues for us are just pictures, images, of our extended Family in Christ! The 1st Commandment isn't against making images, or even having images. Otherwise, God's command for Soloman to include Angels and animans in His Temple would have been a huge contradiction. It is against the WORSHIP of images as if they were themselves CREATOR. But we know the statues are created. Good to have you back, as breif as it may be. Take care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Hi uncle gus, never met you before. what to a catholic, is a 'graven image'? Bro Adam, A "graven image" is any material thing that is worshiped as God--usually referring to statues. There was a time when idol/statue worship was very common. Jesus Christ and his Church was the major force that put an end to this practice. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 (edited) Adam, Didn't we all go over this with you about 8 months ago? Have you forgotten or is this for someone on the sidelines? Resources: http://www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp http://www.ScriptureCatholic.com Here is a site that you and friends might like... it's a new one: http://www.BaptistBoard.net Your Servant in Christ, ironmonk Edited November 20, 2003 by ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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