Apotheoun Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Jul 24 2005, 08:36 AM']It feels nice to be surrounded by such agreeable company. [right][snapback]656806[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Yes, did you see all the little kicking men in my previous post, they all agree too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 Stop being so agreeable... this is the debate table.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 [quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Jul 24 2005, 08:42 AM']:rant: Stop being so agreeable... [right][snapback]656821[/snapback][/right] [/quote] People might be more apt to debate if they read "The Thomist" article I referenced above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 24 2005, 10:44 AM']People might be more apt to debate if they read "The Thomist" article I referenced above. [right][snapback]656822[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Well, I just never agree with you ever, ever, ever... so I'm just not going to read it... : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 24 2005, 10:21 AM']Sorry, I just couldn't resist saying that. [right][snapback]656791[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I envision these guys around the altar singing "we are one body" during the distribution of Communion. I'll propose it to the priest at the parish I'm going to later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Jul 24 2005, 10:46 AM']I envision these guys around the altar singing "we are one body" during the distribution of Communion. I'll propose it to the priest at the parish I'm going to later. [right][snapback]656828[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I envision them singing the Oopah loompah song... Sorry, I feel like I'm about four today... just ignore me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 [quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Jul 24 2005, 08:45 AM']Well, I just never agree with you ever, ever, ever... so I'm just not going to read it... : [right][snapback]656826[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 [quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Jul 24 2005, 10:42 AM'] Stop being so agreeable... this is the debate table.... [right][snapback]656821[/snapback][/right] [/quote] It's only early in the morning. My mere presence in this thread will cause problems, it always seems to. : Also, it will turn into a debate I bet, by someone who misunderstands what this is talking about...the music on sure did!, and that's less of a topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Jul 24 2005, 08:46 AM']I envision these guys around the altar singing "we are one body" during the distribution of Communion. I'll propose it to the priest at the parish I'm going to later. [right][snapback]656828[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Hey, don't insult my little cadre of kicking men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dspen2005 Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 The TLM is, indeed, a beautiful Rite, but I find it particularly denigrating for individuals to indirectly promote the notion that it is "better" than the NO. I am not saying that anyone has done this thusfar, but typically convos of a 'TLM-compared-to-NO-nature' are reduced to such banter. The Missa Normativa is a beautiful Mass when celebrated correctly and in full allegiance to the directives from Rome. There is a sense of the mystical that one gets from the NO. I have attend the TLM on many occasions -- in fact, I practice the First Friday devotion at a local TLM parish. While I do find it beautiful, I feel that it is overrun with unnecessary movements. Now, before someone responds to this last statement... let me clarify where I mean. One example, would be the numerous signs of the cross made over the bread at the time of the consecration.... I understand the significance, but I also think it is a bit too much. Further, the Missa Normativa does have problems -- but not inherent to the Liturgy, per se. The problem comes in the celebration of the Mass by rogue priests who think they know more than Holy Mother Church. The problem comes when we have "pastoral coordinators" who feel that they are de facto priests -- in the sense that they have the "authority" and "knowledge" and "capability" of a priest. Yes, proper catechesis needs to be done; yes, a better understanding and return to the notion of what the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass means and is, is needed; but these, in NO WAY, negate or devalue the beauty of the Missa Normativa as promulgated by H.H. Paul VI after Vatican II. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 it is perfectly acceptable to believe the rituals surrounding the TLM are better than the rituals surrounding the NO. while it is equal in sacramental quality the rituals surrounding the sacrament are not necessarily equal. I believe the rituals surrounding the TLM, including those 'unnecessary movements' like the signs of the cross made over the bread that for me brings to mind the story Jesus told about being insistent in prayer but also the richer scriptural quality, the extra psalms that are inclulded every week, the Last Gospel at the end of Mass, and numerous other things that have been lost. It is not wrong to believe that the TLM is better than the NO; but we're really not supposed to debate that here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dspen2005 Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 (edited) but one isn't better than the other... both are simply variations of the same thing.... the Church, Herself, does not teach one as being better than the other .... if this is case, should we not conform our minds to that of Mother Church? Edited July 24, 2005 by dspen2005 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 It is my contention that when done properly, the ceremonies of the Missa Normativa and the Tridentine are equal in dignity and value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 [quote name='dspen2005' date='Jul 24 2005, 12:16 PM']but one isn't better than the other... both are simply variations of the same thing.... the Church, Herself, does not teach one as being better than the other .... if this is case, should we not conform our minds to that of Mother Church? [right][snapback]656850[/snapback][/right] [/quote] the Church doesnt' say one is not better than the other either. under Pope Paul VI she has promulgated the new mass and suppressed the old mass, as a matter of change in discipline. Pope John Paul II said people who preferred the old mass were not wrong for doing so, in fact in ecclesia dei he said they had 'rightful aspiritions'. You may hold the rituals to be equal, and I may hold the TLM to be superior. We may argue about it (except not on PhatMass cause dUSt doesn't allow that, we could do it on flyfree if you really really wanted to) and neither one of us would be contradicting the Church. Anyway, I will say that when a missa normativa is done completely correct and traditionally it can be pretty close to the Tridentine. I experienced this at the Mass I went to with Cardinal Arinze yesterday. but ultimately I think the richness of the rituals in the TLM are superior than the rituals in the NO simply because the NO is basically a gutted TLM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 And I could point out the the NO Mass is a refined and less cluttered Mass than the TLM, but I won't. : because we don't do catholic-catholic here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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