Anastasia13 Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 I'm not a pacifist, but in a debate a while back, the opposing view offered Matthew 5:39 to support pacifism. I haven't fully resolved my understanding in light of this verse. Can anyone help me? Matthew 5:39 in the NKJV that I have is: "But I tell you not to resist an eavil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also." Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 It was that verse, and the succeeding ones, that have formed my pacifist stance. I understand the Church may have exceptions, but to me, personally, I cannot justify violence, even against someone who is evil. I know war may be [i]allowed[/i] but I don't think fighting is [i]required[/i] of anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 I'm pretty much a pacifist at heart, and have been that way since I was very very young. If you want to read about a Catholic pacifist I would read about Dorothy Day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathurian Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 But what if it's like Hitler? What do you do if someone is just bent on slaughter and will not respond to diplomacy, or even appeasement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anastasia13 Posted July 23, 2005 Author Share Posted July 23, 2005 [quote name='philothea' date='Jul 23 2005, 01:54 PM']I know war may be [i]allowed[/i] but I don't think fighting is [i]required[/i] of anyone. [right][snapback]655912[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I don't understand how you can say that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 ok if we are going to think like this, than I don't want to hear anybody complaining about why there are so many sissy Christian men who don't stand up for themselves or for what's right these days. i hear that thrown around all the time. no wonder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 [quote name='Light and Truth' date='Jul 23 2005, 03:18 PM'][quote name='philothea' date='Jul 23 2005, 02:54 PM'] I know war may be [i]allowed[/i] but I don't think fighting is [i]required[/i] of anyone. [right][snapback]655912[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I don't understand how you can say that. [right][snapback]655936[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Errr. Is there some Church or biblical teaching that says that people are required to use violence? (If biblical, New Testament, please.) JPII was a pacifist. It can hardly be incompatible with Catholic doctrine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 [quote name='Cathurian' date='Jul 23 2005, 03:15 PM']But what if it's like Hitler? What do you do if someone is just bent on slaughter and will not respond to diplomacy, or even appeasement? [right][snapback]655933[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I can't speak for other people, and I don't say it would be wrong for them to use force. I would try to get in the way, and do whatever nonviolent thing I could do to stop someone like that. I'd probably be killed in the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmjtina Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 Historically important pacifists include Leo Tolstoy, Mohandas K. Gandhi, and Martin Luther King, Jr. No violence. There are so many factors concerning WWII. I don't like to think that it all became as big as it did overnight. Evil triumphs when good men do nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anastasia13 Posted July 24, 2005 Author Share Posted July 24, 2005 [quote name='jmjtina' date='Jul 23 2005, 06:36 PM']Evil triumphs when good men do nothing. [right][snapback]656111[/snapback][/right] [/quote] what if words are not enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 you know in Jesus' time turning the other cheek was an INSULT, basically like saying "is that all you got punk?" in a self-defence situation it can be noble to allow yourself to be hurt or even killed without fighting back. but when other people are in danger, your family (or even in circumstances of a just war, your homeland) it is often your responsibility to step up and use violence if necessary. Yes, that's right, I said responsibility, as in it would be wrong to stand by and do nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmjtina Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 [quote name='Light and Truth' date='Jul 23 2005, 08:23 PM']what if words are not enough? [right][snapback]656198[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Martin Luther King Jr. only used words? Four words: Open your history book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 okay... so next time a murderer is holding his gun to someone I'll just break out into "I have a dream, that one day, you will not murder that person!" no... sorry, I'll pull the trigger of a gun in a heartbeat to stop him from murdering an innocent person. oh, and maybe if the Allies during WWII would've said "I have a dream, that one day, Hitler will not invade Poland and cause havoc over Europe and kill millions of people".. sorry, SOMETIMES, words are not enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmjtina Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 23 2005, 09:13 PM']okay... so next time a murderer is holding his gun to someone I'll just break out into "I have a dream, that one day, you will not murder that person!" no... sorry, I'll pull the trigger of a gun in a heartbeat to stop him from murdering an innocent person. oh, and maybe if the Allies during WWII would've said "I have a dream, that one day, Hitler will not invade Poland and cause havoc over Europe and kill millions of people".. sorry, SOMETIMES, words are not enough. [right][snapback]656285[/snapback][/right] [/quote] that's not what I meant al. On a grander scale, I think alot of people do nothing to prevent WAR. During History class, one of the BIGGEST things I couldn't get was why no one did anything when Hitler first invaded and broke that first treaty. That's like everyone turning a blind eye to the fact that this man just broke law and everyone's right in that country. When I mean good men do nothing, I mean just that. Stick a gun in a face of an innocent person, and you bet I'll use violence as well to defend myself. Don Jon taught me better than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 okay, then I'm confused as to what you meant. anyway, when he broke that first treaty all they did was use words, when they should've used force then and there. I thought you were saying that we should be more pacifist and only use words like MLKJ (seemed like you were arguing words are always enough)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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