Time travel

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Jul 23 2005, 02:41 AM']I wasn't implying anything of that sort. One might say God allowed them to be heretics, but certainly I would not assert that God positively wills heresy. 

And I don't know what you're talking about at the end there.. The biblical view of predestination concerns persons.. But is this a trick?, nature and persons.. sounds like typical east/west quibbling and bibbling. hehe
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In the Eastern view God can be said to have "allowed" them to do what they did, but only in the sense that He gave the free will.

To understand the Eastern view of free will, which is the better reading of scripture, you need to examine the writings of St. Maximos. Nature has been redeemed, and that is predestined through the incarnation, but salvation is based upon each man's free will acting in coordination (synergy) with God's uncreated energies.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 23 2005, 04:50 AM']In the Eastern view God can be said to have "allowed" them to do what they did, but only in the sense that He gave the free will.

To understand the Eastern view of free will, which is the better reading of scripture, you need to examine the writings of St. Maximos.  Nature has been redeemed, and that is predestined through the incarnation, but salvation is based upon each man's free will acting in coordination (synergy) with God's uncreated energies.
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I'm not sure what you are referring to when you contrast the Eastern view with the Wester view, since there are so many varying schools of thought in the Catholic Tradition, especially on issues of this sort. The statement you made above doesn't really strike me as particularly distinct from say, what Bonaventure might say. Actually there are striking similarities between Bonaventure and Maximos on the subject of the redemption and predestination. Not to minimize the differences, but a couple years ago when I studied a bit of Maximos and Palamas immediately after a period of devotion to Bonaventure, I felt quite comfortable with what they were saying.

[Apotheoun]

The distinctive feature is that the Eastern Churches reject the Augustinian viewpoint that forms the foundation of all the various Western schools of thought on predestination. Predestination concerns nature, i.e., the natures (essences) of things, while salvation involves the integration of man's hypostasis with his nature (i.e., his natural virtues). In other words, everyone is predestined to redemption, but salvation involves a synergy between man's free will and God's energy. Those who are saved, are saved because they have integrated their natural virtues into their hypostasis, while those who are damned have failed to do this, because they have not lived a life of ascesis leading to [i]theosis[/i].

[Laudate_Dominum]

If it wasn't so late.. err, early I would love a good debate, one thing that can really set me off is Orthodoxy's caricature of St. Augustine. Perhaps tomorrow (today really). It seems to be my bed time.

Pax

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Jul 23 2005, 03:25 AM']If it wasn't so late.. err, early I would love a good debate, one thing that can really set me off is Orthodoxy's caricature of St. Augustine. Perhaps tomorrow (today really). It seems to be my bed time.

Pax
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Certainly some Eastern Orthodox will present Augustine's views in a bad light, but then some of Augustine's theological positions are, to put it simply, in error.

Blessings to you, and have a good night,
Todd

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 23 2005, 05:26 AM']Certainly some Eastern Orthodox will present Augustine's views in a bad light, but then some of Augustine's theological positions are, to put it simply, in error.

Blessings to you, and have a good night,
Todd
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[/quote]This is off topic perhaps, but, I love the Eastern Fathers, however what I can't stand is that practically every text I've seen about the Eastern Fathers tends to read them with a post-schism lense. And it's funny that you can read volumes of Western Theology and not encounter anything inflamatory against the East, whereas I can scarce think of an Orthodox text (this applies to Byzantine Catholic to a lesser extent) that doesn't manage to go off into polemics and charicaturing of the West. I'd almost call it an obsession. Why are they so hung up on exposing the West as some kind of heretical monster? I realize Western authors have dismantled, charicatured and slandered Eastern traditions as well, but I don't see it on the same scale by a long shot, especially in this 'age of ecumenism'.

Just venting a bit. I hope I haven't been offensive. Well, excessively offensive anyway.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Jul 23 2005, 03:36 AM']This is off topic perhaps, but, I love the Eastern Fathers, however what I can't stand is that practically every text I've seen about the Eastern Fathers tends to read them with a post-schism lense. And it's funny that you can read volumes of Western Theology and not encounter anything inflamatory against the East, whereas I can scarce think of an Orthodox text (this applies to Byzantine Catholic to a lesser extent) that doesn't manage to go off into polemics and charicaturing of the West.  I'd almost call it an obsession. Why are they so hung up on exposing the West as some kind of heretical monster? I realize Western authors have dismantled, charicatured and slandered Eastern traditions as well, but I don't see it on the same scale by a long shot, especially in this 'age of ecumenism'.

Just venting a bit. I hope I haven't been offensive. Well, excessively offensive anyway.
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Well, there are Western theologians, like Martin Jugie, who violently attacked St. Gregory Palamas, and declared him and anyone who followed his thought to be a heretic. So I guess it does depend upon what you are reading.

But the lense works both ways, because you forget that I was a Westerner for 17 years, and so I read texts about the Cappadocians and St. John Damascene that made them appear to be Western Aristotelian Scholastics. Hard to believe I know.

Take a look at some of the articles in the old Catholic Encyclopedia (e.g., on Hesychasm), and you'll see some interesting anti-Eastern polemic. Clearly, there have been polemical on both sides, but the funny thing is, that since the Second Vatican Council much of the West has basically abandoned its own theological tradition in favor of almost anything but the Scholastics. Certainly that isn't a good thing, but it perhaps explains why there has (thankfully) been less polemics on the Western side, and hopefully Eastern Orthodox authors will reciprocate in kind.

Blessings,
Todd

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 23 2005, 05:44 AM']Well, there are Western theologians, like Martin Jugie, who violently attacked St. Gregory Palamas, and declared him and anyone who followed his thought a heretic.  So I guess it does depend upon who you are reading.

But the lense works both ways, you forget that I was a Westerner, and I read texts about the Cappadocians and St. John Damascene that made them appear to be Western Aristotelian Scholastics.  Hard to believe I know.

Take a  look at some of the articles in the old Catholic Encyclopedia (e.g., on Hesychasm), and you'll see some interesting anti-Eastern polemic.  Clearly, there has been polemic on both sides, the funny thing is, that since the Second Vatican Council much of the West has basically abandoned its own theological tradition in favor of almost anything but the Scholastics.  Certainly that isn't a good thing, but it perhaps explains why there has (thankfully) been less polemics on the Western side, and hopefully Eastern Orthodox authors will reciprocate in kind.

Blessings,
Todd
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Cool. I did meantion the western polemics against the east, but it is not the same (at least not today). You noted some of the factors involved in this, but honestly, I can't recall picking up a book by an Orthodox Theologian that didn't find a way to weave railings against the West into its text. I seriously feel like it's an obsession. LOL
hehe

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Jul 23 2005, 03:48 AM']Cool. I did meantion the western polemics against the east, but it is not the same (at least not today). You noted some of the factors involved in this, but honestly, I can't recall picking up a book by an Orthodox Theologian that didn't find a way to weave railings against the West into its text. I seriously feel like it's an obsession. LOL
hehe
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Which books have you read?

I've read Lossky's "Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church," no railing in it; Papademetriou's "Introduction to Saint Gregory Palamas," and again, no railing in it. I've read books by Meyendorff, Ware, Florovsky, and again no railing against the West. Certainly, when necessary they will highlight differences, but they don't "attack" the Western viewpoint.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 23 2005, 05:53 AM']Which books have you read?

I've read Lossky's "Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church," no railing in it; Papademetriou's "Introduction to Saint Gregory Palamas," and again, no railing in it.  I've read books by Meyendorff, Ware, Florovsky, and again no railing against the West.  Certainly, when necessary they will highlight differences, but they don't "attack" the Western viewpoint.
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Maybe I'm just more sensitive to it, because it is the impression I have. The authors I have read are Lossky (including the text you mentioned), Kallistos Ware (or course), a bit of Meyendorff (not a whole book but parts), and Evdokimov (who is good, but I did detect the influence of modern philosophy in a way that made me uncomfortable).
There were others I'm sure, but I haven't read anything lately of this type of thing. And then there have been articles and things online.
I can't recall specific examples for each author, but they definitely slip in little comments about the West here and there.
I remember Evdokimov bashing Humanae Vitae and assuming the all too familiar attitude of Eastern superiority when it comes to "Orthodoxy" and showing how his bag (which he called Orthodoxy) is truly biblical and patristic, etc.. and how Augustine corrupted the west. This seems to be the most common bit, and often, as I said, they don't do justice to Augustine or the Theology of the West.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Just prior to my Orthodox binge I had studied Augustine at great length (read many texts and took two classes on his thought), so I was able to see the errors of the Augustine bashing quite clearly.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Jul 23 2005, 04:03 AM']Just prior to my Orthodox binge I had studied Augustine at great length (read many texts and took two classes on his thought), so I was able to see the errors of the Augustine bashing quite clearly.
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Well, I certainly don't wish to "bash" Augustine, but I'll never forget the essay by Peter Brown last semester at the FUS Graduate Colloquium where he spoke about Augustine's teaching on original sin, and how it is passed on because the man's genitalia becomes overly heated during sex, and that this overheating damages the seed. I know it sounds funny, but that was what Augustine taught when arguing with Julian.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 23 2005, 06:09 AM']Well, I certainly don't wish to "bash" Augustine, but I'll never forget the essay by Peter Brown last semester at the FUS Graduate Colloquium where he spoke about Augustine's teaching on original sin, and how it is passed on because the man's genitalia becomes overly heated during sex, and that this overheating damages the seed. I know it sounds funny, but that was what Augustine taught when arguing with Julian.
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I know for a fact that Augustine spouted off many different ideas regarding the issue of original sin. That description doesn't sound fair to me. Generally there is a profundity in his thoughts that is missed when someone tries to "explain" what he was saying. He was a creative thinker and often looked at a problem from many angles. Most of the time the problem is how later people interpretted him. I like to think that I can understand Augustine. hehe, perhaps the presumption that got a lot of people in trouble throughout history. but I really do. I like the way he thinks. Definitely not scholastic, that's for sure, but often people erroneously take things he said as scholastic definitions.

There is a text that uses modern science, fetal psychology etc.. to elaborate a theory of original sin that isn't far removed from some of Augustine's ideas. And it's interesting to read. (It's not what you might think either, it's a Theology text but it brings in other subjects to make certain points.)

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Jul 23 2005, 04:15 AM']I know for a fact that Augustine spouted off many different ideas regarding the issue of original sin. That description doesn't sound fair to me. Generally there is a profundity in his thoughts that is missed when someone tries to "explain" what he was saying. He was a creative thinker and often looked at a problem from many angles. Most of the time the problem is how later people interpretted him. I like to think that I can understand Augustine. hehe, perhaps the presumption that got a lot of people in trouble throughout history. but I really do. I like the way he thinks. Definitely not scholastic, that's for sure, but often people erroneously take things he said as scholastic definitions.

There is a text that uses modern science, fetal psychology etc.. to elaborate a theory of original sin that isn't far removed from some of Augustine's ideas. And it's interesting to read. (It's not what you might think either, it's a Theology text but it brings in other subjects to make certain points.)
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Perhaps you should talk to Peter Brown and read his essay. In fact, because it was presented at the Colloquium, his essay may be available at the FUS theology department.

He went through many of Augustine's theories in his presentation. Interestingly, most of the theories involve elements of traducianism and border on Manichaeism.

By the way, I do agree with you that Augustine's thought is complex, and that is probably why the Reformers were able to utilize some of it, by misappropriating elements of it and applying the ideas in ways that even Augustine wouldn't have agreed with.

[Laudate_Dominum]

hehe, I will admit that I' ve never been particularly proud of Augustine on this topic. hehe
I should like to meet Mr. Peter Brown. What is his deal? Is he a new prof (I haven't heard of him), or is he some kind of masters student?

Go raibh mile maith agat..