Laudate_Dominum Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 [quote name='curtins' date='Jul 23 2005, 10:10 AM']I beg to differ. The french people were starving and the monarchy would do nothing about it. [right][snapback]655658[/snapback][/right] [/quote] My point was not that the Monarchy was not involved, but that it does not follow that Monarchy in general doesn't work (there are different implentations of it). This type of thing happens in all sorts of systems. The communists in Russia purposely starved millions, and even the great USA committed genocide against it's native people. And there are vast other dimensions to consider when evaluating these things (that I'm not motivated to get into at the moment). And there was certainly much more behind the French Revolution than just the slow to act nobility. This was just the catalyst of the Revolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pio Nono Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Jul 23 2005, 09:56 AM']Wholly Carp! The French Revolution was hardly the fault of monarchy, it was a rebellion based largely on corrupt and sinister philosophies and class conflict. And besides this insane inclusion, monarchy didn't produce these wars, there is more too it than that.[/quote] What I'm saying is that confusion, greed and power-grabbing in monarchies caused these and other conflicts - read any history of, say, the Siclian Vespers and you'll see what I mean. The conflict was CAUSED by Charles of Anjou - not the Siclians wanting freedom, not some nation invading, not the Spanish, it was Charles, King of Sicily. [quote]And what, have non-monarchist done better in this regard? Shoot, look at Europes history following the French Revolution. Look at the 20th century, world wars etc. The civil war was a zillion times more terrible than the revolutionary war ever way.. But this is besides the point, I don't think a real argument has been presented. You've conveyed some emotional content associated with monarchy that I believe represents what is instilled by the formation common to our modern society. I don't believe it is objective. [right][snapback]655645[/snapback][/right] [/quote] But all you've said is that you disagree with my assertion. Am I wrong? If so, show me. Whether monarchy creates war isn't the discussion, though - the discussion is whether we want monarchy "back", and I'm merely pointing to history and saying that, if we want it back, we're going to have to accept those things that resulted from the feudal system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 monarchy has the potential either to be the ABSOLUTE BEST or the ABSOLUTE WORST form of government. democracy is a muddled middle ground, it will never be the worst and as long as it remains accountable to the people (and thus remains democracy) it will never be the worst. I blame Henry VIII for the whole mess of it, 16th century english monks were on the verge of a huge industrial revolution until he ransacked them. we could have had a Industrial Christendom... that would've been so dope. the fall of England was the greatest tragedy of Christendom and even though they're basically the only monarchy remaining, it is also somewhat their fault that the entire monarchial system was not able to transition strongly into the modern world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel's angel Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 the Queen of England is German anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomProddy Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 23 2005, 06:35 PM']the fall of England was the greatest tragedy of Christendom and even though they're basically the only monarchy remaining, it is also somewhat their fault that the entire monarchial system was not able to transition strongly into the modern world. [right][snapback]655709[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Well that's more to do with the Magna Carta and the English Civil War rather than the seperating of the Church of England from Rome. Edited July 23, 2005 by RandomProddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 23 2005, 11:35 AM']monarchy has the potential either to be the ABSOLUTE BEST or the ABSOLUTE WORST form of government. democracy is a muddled middle ground, it will never be the worst and as long as it remains accountable to the people (and thus remains democracy) it will never be the worst. I blame Henry VIII for the whole mess of it, 16th century english monks were on the verge of a huge industrial revolution until he ransacked them. we could have had a Industrial Christendom... that would've been so dope. the fall of England was the greatest tragedy of Christendom and even though they're basically the only monarchy remaining, it is also somewhat their fault that the entire monarchial system was not able to transition strongly into the modern world. [right][snapback]655709[/snapback][/right] [/quote] No Aloysius it is the absolute best form of government, which is why it is capable of doing so much harm when abused-- it is simply capable in a way that no other form of Government is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Pio Nono' date='Jul 23 2005, 09:33 AM']JMJ 7/23 - St. Apollinaris of Ravenna Though monarchy has its benefits, do we really want to return to the government that produced the Hundred Years' War, the Sicilian Vespers, and the Bulgarian Massacre (not to mention the American Revolution and French Revolution)? [right][snapback]655631[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Yes! I mean Democracy started World War II and the American the American Civil War for sure, I would argue it also caused WWI and numerous other wars. And the American Revolution wasn't caused by Monarchy but by those who rejected just Authority, Democrates I would point out, not Monarchist. I would argue that it is impossible to have a just Athority with a Democratic frame work. Edited July 23, 2005 by Don John of Austria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jul 23 2005, 02:39 PM']No Aloysius it is the absolute best form of government, which is why it is capable of doing so much harm when abused-- it is simply capable in a way that no other form of Government is. [right][snapback]655843[/snapback][/right] [/quote] that's basically what I meant RandomProddy, Henry VIII destroyed the strong english monastic system. You would be very surprised to learn how advanced scientifically some of these were, they really were on the verge of an industrial revolution. If the industrial revolution would've happened in the sixteenth century during the height of monarchial systems, there is a good chance Europe would still have monarchies today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomProddy Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 23 2005, 08:44 PM']RandomProddy, Henry VIII destroyed the strong english monastic system. [/quote] Whilst I'm not going to argue the finer points of this on this forum, needless to say my old school (with very close connections to the C of E) has a unique view on this. And i'm not going to claim that view was taught to me [quote]You would be very surprised to learn how advanced scientifically some of these were, they really were on the verge of an industrial revolution. If the industrial revolution would've happened in the sixteenth century during the height of monarchial systems, there is a good chance Europe would still have monarchies today. [right][snapback]655852[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Possibly, but then the democratic processes involved after the English Civil War, the repercussions of the Treaty of Westphalia and numerous other social upheavals and military actions contributed a lot to the rapidity of the Industrial Revolution. There are still quite a few monarchies in Europe btw. It's just none are even close to having the prestige.... Edited July 23, 2005 by RandomProddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathurian Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 All hail Liechtenstein and Monaco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomProddy Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 [quote name='Cathurian' date='Jul 23 2005, 10:21 PM']All hail Liechtenstein and Monaco. [right][snapback]655938[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Ah, but Monaco is a principality not a kingdom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pio Nono Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 JMJ 7/23 - St. Apollinaris of Ravenna Spain is still technically a kingdom...I shook the hand of the Crown Prince when I was in Santiago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 [quote name='RandomProddy' date='Jul 23 2005, 03:30 PM']Ah, but Monaco is a principality not a kingdom [right][snapback]655949[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Still a monarchy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 wasnt saddams regime basically a monarchy? Even though it was called a dictatorship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomProddy Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 24 2005, 01:20 AM']wasnt saddams regime basically a monarchy? Even though it was called a dictatorship. [right][snapback]656066[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Why would a monarch have a republican guard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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