Different Storytellers

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Sirklawd' date='Jul 28 2005, 12:18 PM']no error at all. infact, im living proof that that is possible.  I live on the east coast (usa). my dad's entire family lives on the west coast, I have atleast 10 cousins over there. I've never EVER seen them, but I do know they exist, and I've heard OF them.
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RESPONSE:

Have you overlooked the obvious difference? Jesus didn't live on the east coast and John the Baptist on the west couse. They lived close enough that Mary was able to visit Elizabeth. And you don't suppose that Elizabeth would have told John the Baptist about his illustrious cousin?

The problem is that John apparently hadn't read Luke's story when he wrote his own. Different stories for different story tellers.

There's still another discrepancy. Where does John place John the Baptist when Jesus began his public ministry, and where does Luke place him?

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 28 2005, 01:13 PM']RESPONSE:

No. I learn from doing the reading myself.

Have you just discovered the writings of the Early Church Fathers? Have you studied them and identified  what is accurate and what are errors and contradictions?

One of the most noted was Eusebius. In his History of the Church, Vol 1, chapter 13 he tells us that:

For instance the King Abgarus, who ruled with great glory the nations beyond the Euphrates, being afflicted with a terrible disease which it was beyond the power of human skill to cure, when he heard of the name of Jesus, and of his miracles, which were attested by all with one accord sent a message to him by a courier and begged him to heal his disease.

But he did not at that time comply with his request; yet he deemed him worthy of a personal letter in which he said that he would send one of his disciples to cure his disease, and at the same time promised salvation to himself and all his house.

So according to Eusebius, jesus didn't make housecalls but did write letters.

You do believe all that, don't you?
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Is this your "proof" that Jesus [i]never[/i] went to somebody's house to cure a disease?

[Sirklawd]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 28 2005, 12:35 PM']RESPONSE:

Have you overlooked the obvious difference? Jesus didn't live on the east coast and John the Baptist on the west couse. They lived close enough that Mary was able to visit Elizabeth. And you don't suppose that Elizabeth would have told John the Baptist about his illustrious cousin?

The problem is that John apparently  hadn't read Luke's story when he wrote his own. Different stories for different story tellers.

There's still another discrepancy. Where does John place John the Baptist when Jesus began his public ministry, and where does Luke place him?
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lol i forgot.. your assumptions are ALWAYS correct. my b, dawg. i keep forgetting youre not here to debate.

Edited July 28, 2005 by Sirklawd

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I can answer those objections in private if anyone wishes. Just PM me. It is of little use to post it here.

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote]Have you overlooked the obvious difference? Jesus didn't live on the east coast and John the Baptist on the west couse. They lived close enough that Mary was able to visit Elizabeth. And you don't suppose that Elizabeth would have told John the Baptist about his illustrious cousin?[/quote]

All information points to the fact that, as I think you yourself have indicated, the Precurser was a member of the Essenes. If this is true, then he would [i]not[/i] have grown up with his cousin, but with other essenes.

Thus, it is not only rational, but [i]probable[/i] that John would not have been able to claim to have "known" Jesus. Being told stories by your mother of a cousin you have never met would certainly not legitimize a claim of "knowing" him.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 28 2005, 02:13 PM']RESPONSE:

No. I learn from doing the reading myself.

Have you just discovered the writings of the Early Church Fathers? Have you studied them and identified  what is accurate and what are errors and contradictions?

One of the most noted was Eusebius. In his History of the Church, Vol 1, chapter 13 he tells us that:

For instance the King Abgarus, who ruled with great glory the nations beyond the Euphrates, being afflicted with a terrible disease which it was beyond the power of human skill to cure, when he heard of the name of Jesus, and of his miracles, which were attested by all with one accord sent a message to him by a courier and begged him to heal his disease.

But he did not at that time comply with his request; yet he deemed him worthy of a personal letter in which he said that he would send one of his disciples to cure his disease, and at the same time promised salvation to himself and all his house.

So according to Eusebius, jesus didn't make housecalls but did write letters.

You do believe all that, don't you?
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Ok, I don't think you understand what the word "osmosis" means.

[u][b]Osmosis:[/b][/u] A gradual, often unconscious process of assimilation or absorption


The point is that it is obvious you have not read anything therefore you know nothing... you seem to come up with your "stuff" out of thin air... hence you appear to think you can learn by osmosis... "unconscious process". Meaning you don't read. If you read, then you would learn that the views you post here are wrong.


I don't need a response to you crying that I'm wrong when you haven't shown anything. If you honestly think that no one here has given you references that prove you wrong you either have a serious learning disability or you don't read.

If I am wrong, then PROVE IT WITH PREVIOUS STATED MATERIALS: the first Christian writings aka (also known as) Early Church Fathers explaining the Scriptures and the True Chrsitian faith... the people that the Apostles taught.


Everyone,
If he doesn't even try the above, then I will do my best not to reply to the nonsense posted.... I ask you to do the same.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[LittleLes]

[quote name='thedude' date='Jul 28 2005, 12:35 PM']Is this your "proof" that Jesus [i]never[/i] went to somebody's house to cure a disease?
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RESPONSE:

This report is supposedly about one incident. I hope you don't take Eusebius seriously.

Eusebius, the famous Church Father, has to be read with real caution.

But, if Eusebius is correct, we know that Jesus wrote letters. Well, at least one.

I hope Ironmonk enjoys his CD's, but doesn't take them as gospel. In fact, doesn't take the Gospels as gospel. :

[LittleLes]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jul 28 2005, 01:14 PM']Ok, I don't think you understand what the word "osmosis" means.

[u][b]Osmosis:[/b][/u] A gradual, often unconscious process of assimilation or absorption
The point is that it is obvious you have not read anything therefore you know nothing... [/quote]

RESPONSE:

Osmosis primarily is a physical process involving fluids moving through a medium. We lab people are well familiar with it.

Not read anything? Apparently you've not been reading my posts.

Sorry you're uncomfortable with the evidence I post. But facts just don't go away.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jul 28 2005, 01:14 PM']
I don't need a response to you crying that I'm wrong when you haven't shown anything. If you honestly think that no one here has given you references that prove you wrong you either have a serious learning disability or you don't read.

If I am wrong, then PROVE IT WITH PREVIOUS STATED MATERIALS: the first Christian writings aka (also known as) Early Church Fathers explaining the Scriptures and the True Chrsitian faith... the people that the Apostles taught.
Everyone,
If he doesn't even try the above, then I will do my best not to reply to the nonsense posted.... I ask you to do the same.
God Bless,
ironmonk
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RESPONSE:

No. I'm afraid that most of answers given are clearly flawed. Some seem unabashedly copied from "Catholic Answers."

And see if I understand your demand. You're insisting that I accept the writings of the Early Church Fathers as evidence? Is that it?

Can I start with Eusebius? : : :

Hope that you enjoy your CD's.

[ironmonk]

Ok... maybe your problem is comprehension...


You cannot pick and choose what to use... You want to quote Eusebius, let's do so....

[b]Eusebius of Caerarea[/b]

"At that time [A.D. 150] there flourished in the Church Hegesippus, whom we know from what has gone before, and Dionysius, bishop of Corinth, and another bishop, Pinytus of Crete, and besides these, Philip, and Apollinarius, and Melito, and Musanus, and Modestus, and finally Irenaeus. From them has come down to us in writing, the sound and orthodox faith received from Tradition" (Church History 4:21).

"[In the second] year of the two hundredth and fifth Olympiad [A.D. 42]: The apostle Peter, after he has established the church in Antioch, is sent to Rome, where he remains as a bishop of that city, preaching the gospel for twenty-five years" (The Chronicle [A.D. 303]).


"A question of no small importance arose at that time [A.D. 190]. For the parishes of all Asia [Minor], as from an older tradition held that the fourteenth day of the moon, on which the Jews were commanded to sacrifice the lamb, should be observed as the feast of the Savior’s Passover. . . . But it was not the custom of the churches in the rest of the world . . . as they observed the practice which, from apostolic tradition, has prevailed to the present time, of terminating the fast [of Lent] on no other day than on that of the resurrection of the Savior [Sunday]. Synods and assemblies of bishops were held on this account, and all, with one consent, through mutual correspondence drew up an ecclesiastical decree that the mystery of the resurrection of the Lord should be celebrated on no other but the Lord’s day and that we should observe the close of the paschal fast on this day only. . . . Thereupon [Pope] Victor, who presided over the church at Rome, immediately attempted to cut off from the community the parishes of all Asia [Minor], with the churches that agreed with them, as heterodox. And he wrote letters and declared all the brethren there wholly excommunicate. But this did not please all the bishops, and they besought him to consider the things of peace and of neighborly unity and love. . . . [Irenaeus] fittingly admonishes Victor that he should not cut off whole churches of God which observed the tradition of an ancient custom" (Church History 5:23:1–24:11).

"Thus then did Irenaeus entreat and negotiate [with Pope Victor] on behalf of the peace of the churches—[Irenaeus being] a man well-named, for he was a peacemaker both in name and character. And he corresponded by letter not only with Victor, but also with very many and various rulers of churches" (ibid., 24:18).

Victor . . . was the thirteenth bishop of Rome from Peter (The Little Labyrinth [A.D. 211], in Eusebius, Church History 5:28:3).




"At that time [A.D. 150] there flourished in the Church Hegesippus, whom we know from what has gone before, and Dionysius, bishop of Corinth, and another bishop, Pinytus of Crete, and besides these, Philip, and Apollinarius, and Melito, and Musanus, and Modestus, and, finally, Irenaeus. From them has come down to us in writing, the sound and orthodox faith received from tradition" (Church History 4:21).



They [the early saints of the Old Testament] did not care about circumcision of the body, neither do we [Christians]. They did not care about observing Sabbaths, nor do we. They did not avoid certain kinds of food, neither did they regard the other distinctions which Moses first delivered to their posterity to be observed as symbols; nor do Christians of the present day do such things (Church History 1:4:8 [A.D. 312])

[T]he day of his [Christ's] light . . . was the day of his resurrection from the dead, which they say, as being the one and only truly holy day and the Lord's day, is better than any number of days as we ordinarily understand them, and better than the days set apart by the Mosaic Law for feasts, new moons, and Sabbaths, which the Apostle [Paul] teaches are the shadow of days and not days in reality (Proof of the Gospel 4:16:186 [A.D. 319]).

"We believe . . . each of these to be and to exist: the Father, truly Father, and the Son, truly Son, and the Holy Ghost, truly Holy Ghost, as also our Lord, sending forth his disciples for the preaching, said, ‘Go teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.’ Concerning whom we confidently affirm that so we hold, and so we think, and so we have held aforetime, and we maintain this faith unto the death, anathematizing every godless heresy" (Letter to the People of His Diocese 3 [A.D. 323]).

"[The Emperor Philip,] being a Christian desired, on the day of the last paschal vigil, to share with the multitude in the prayers of the Church, but that he was not permitted to enter, by him who then presided, until he had made confession and had numbered himself among those who were reckoned as transgressors and who occupied the place of penance. For if he had not done this, he would never have been received by him, on account of the many crimes which he had committed. It is said that he obeyed readily, manifesting in his conduct a genuine and pious fear of God" (Church History 6:34 [A.D. 312]).





Eusebius was Catholic loyal to the Pope... Just as all the other members of the Church that he talks about... They all believed in the Sacraments of the Catholic Church...forgiveness of sins from the Church, Holy Unction, Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Orders, Holy Matrimony, the Eucharist... they all believed in the Pope as successor of Peter, they all believed in One Church guided by God and infallible.


You cannot use history to defend your stances because Christian History is Catholic History.

[ironmonk]

Les,
if you want to carry on... bring it here: [url="http://www.MoralTruth.com/MTBBS/"]http://www.MoralTruth.com/MTBBS/[/url]

Edited July 28, 2005 by ironmonk

[photosynthesis]

LittleLes, on Judgment day you are going to have a lot of explaining to do. I will be praying for your soul.

[Sirklawd]

lets check that score board.
phatmassers: 5000,
les: 0.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Jul 28 2005, 01:57 PM']LittleLes, on Judgment day you are going to have a lot of explaining to do.  I will be praying for your soul.
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RESPONSE:

Yes. As the old Irishman said about meeting God: "I sure hope that it isn't going to be an embarrassing moment for the both of us!"

On the other hand, maybe God and myself will have a good laugh about the gullibility of some true believers. You think?

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Sirklawd' date='Jul 28 2005, 02:12 PM']lets check that score board.
phatmassers: 5000,
les: 0.
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RESPONSE:

Evidence? Or a wild assertion with no evidence? :