Different Storytellers

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Jul 29 2005, 05:07 PM']You out of all people.
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RESPONSE:

"Every day and in every way I'm getting better and better."

[Paladin D]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 29 2005, 06:35 PM']RESPONSE:

"Every day and in every way I'm getting [b]better and better[/b]." 
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From a certain point of view...

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 29 2005, 06:15 PM']RESPONSE:

Actually, I picked up the term from Eric Hoffer's book of the same title.

It deals with the psychology of those who attach themselves to mass movements, whether in religion, politics, economics, etc.

He makes the observation that most of these movements end in the suffix " -ism" and inspite of the belief system involved, all share a lot in common. It seems strange, but capitalism, communism, Catholicism, Mohamadism, Republicanism, etc., etc, make very similar demands on their respective memberships.

One feature is a sense of personal power  experienced by those who belong, and the consequent fear of loss if one cannot belong . Hence the need to obey and conform with the mores of the group.

Another is the unquestioning acceptance of a belief system or what one is told by the leadership. This, too, is tied into belonging. Members simply have to reject out of hand anything which contradicts "central dogma," regardless of how overwhelming the evidence. Alligience is the core value.

As a review notes: "The True Believer is a visionary, highly provocative look into the mind of the fanatic and a penetrating study of how an individual becomes one. Eric Hoffer was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 1983."
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The list of "isms" renders the book self-contradictory and nonsensical. Mr. Hoffer himself probably subscribes to some sort of "ism." But his is probably ok.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='thedude' date='Jul 29 2005, 09:46 PM']The list of "isms" renders the book self-contradictory and nonsensical.  Mr. Hoffer himself probably subscribes to some sort of "ism."  But his is probably ok.
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Got a point.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='thedude' date='Jul 29 2005, 08:46 PM']The list of "isms" renders the book self-contradictory and nonsensical.  Mr. Hoffer himself probably subscribes to some sort of "ism."  But his is probably ok.
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RESPONSE:

Obviously this is your opinion. Again, if you have any evidence, please present it.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 29 2005, 09:53 PM']RESPONSE:

Obviously this is your opinion. Again, if you have any evidence, please present it.
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Anyone and anybody is part of some sort of "ism". Whatever his political view was, he would be part of that "ism". If he held to a certain religious belief (or lack of), it would be an "ism".

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Jul 29 2005, 08:58 PM']Anyone and anybody is part of some sort of "ism".  Whatever his political view was, he would be part of that "ism".  If he held to a certain religious belief (or lack of), it would be an "ism".
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RESPONSE:

But not everybody is a true believer. That's the difference.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 29 2005, 10:08 PM']RESPONSE:

But not everybody is a true believer. That's the difference.
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Even those with no religion are true believers of [b]atheism[/b].

[Aloysius]

you just have the nicest little elitest attitude

everyone that agrees with the Church must be mindless and never think for themself, you say.

but then where does the teaching come from? oh okay, so the people in the magisterium think for themselves and form the teaching and then the masses are stupidly duped.

isn't it possible that us, simple laypeople, can study logic, philosophy, and religion and come up with conclusions that are the same as what the magisterium came up with when it studied logic, philosophy, and religion?

oh no, it is much more likely that LittleLes is the enlightened genius of phatmass and allt he masses of people, some with (some without) college degrees who have read hundreds of documents and hundreds of books on the issue and pondered it for themselves and come to the conclusion that the Church is right are all stupid.

that story was written by Aloysius. the following story was written by Snoopy:

"It was a dark and stormy night..."

hows that for different story tellers? isn't that what this thread is about?

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 29 2005, 05:50 PM']RESPONSE:

The First Vatican Council, Session 3, Canon 2 declares:

2. On revelation
". If anyone says that the one, true God, our creator and lord, cannot be known with certainty from the things that have been made, by the natural light of human reason: let him be anathema.

"Reason alone is not good enough to "prove" that God exists" you say??

I'm afraid that in disagreeing with Vatican I, and ecumenical and therefore infallible council, you incur an anathema. Sorry
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Of course we can know God through His creation. No one here would deny that. However, the foundation of a relationship with God is faith, not reason. You can't base a relationship with God on reason. What you're doing is quoting out of context, and any uneducated cradle Catholic can see though it.

If you actually listened to what I said, you'd know that I wasn't saying you couldn't know God at all through reason. Actually, reason is very useful in learning about God. But we must always put our faith in God, whose Wisdom is far above human reason.

Oh, and if anyone calls me a "he," as LittleLes did, let him be anathema. :

[Carnanc]

Les,

After your post about “true believers”, I thought I would share a little bit about why I believe.

I agree. Sometimes when I hear things like this, I am tempted to believe that by following the Catholic Church I am following a mass movement blindly with no evidence as to it being a good cause. However, God has given me the gift of faith, and allowed me to understand that I am not following the dictates of an old and fading movement, I am following Jesus Christ, the eternal and ever living God. The Church He established guides us to salvation, eternal life. The Teaching, the rules, and the bible are all to lead us to our last end, which is God. We all desire happiness, and I know that my happiness is found in Christ, and that I can know him by belonging to His Church.

I pray for you that God may grant you the gift of faith. Les, you have impressed me with your knowledge about the Church, and while you may not believe the truth as revealed to us by God through the Church in all aspects, I can tell by the effort you put into your posts here that you are searching for the truth, and I encourage you that if you keep looking and asking God to show you, you will find it.


When I think about it, the reason I believe that the Catholic Church is the fullness of truth at least for me, is as you suggest not primarily because of any intellectual argument or evidence. Sure, I count the faith of the martyrs who have died for their faith, the Church’s endurance through trial and coming out strong, and how the Church seems to have a clear answer to every question I have, helping me in every aspect of my life as evidence, but it wasn’t these things which initially brought me to belief. I think this is different for different people, but I think this has been my experience. .

But foremost I believe because of faith. It is beyond a mere intellectual understanding. Our faith is founded on a relationship with Jesus Christ. It is the profound experience I have had of Christ in my life that has led me to the Church. It says in the Gospel of John, when Jesus is calling his first disciples, he says “Come and see,” One of these was the Apostle Andrew, on after spending the afternoon with Jesus finds his brother Peter and tells him “we have found the Messiah.” In just one afternoon this remarkable change had taken place. It was by getting to know Christ in a personal way by spending time with him that they could recognize him as the Messiah.

I think this starts with prayer and being honest with God.



God Bless

Matt

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 29 2005, 06:32 PM']RESPONSE:

Perhaps we can say I hold to Canon 2 and 4 with the same degree of certitude as Photosynthesis, based on what he says, holds to Canon 1. :
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WRONG GENDER, LittleLes...

[LittleLes]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Jul 29 2005, 10:28 PM']WRONG GENDER, LittleLes...
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RESPONSE:

Sorry! Someone did that to me last week too.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 29 2005, 09:48 PM']you just have the nicest little elitest attitude

everyone that agrees with the Church must be mindless and never think for themself, you say.

but then where does the teaching come from?  oh okay, so the people in the magisterium think for themselves and form the teaching and then the masses are stupidly duped.

isn't it possible that us, simple laypeople, can study logic, philosophy, and religion and come up with conclusions that are the same as what the magisterium came up with when it studied logic, philosophy, and religion?

oh no, it is much more likely that LittleLes is the enlightened genius of phatmass and allt he masses of people, some with (some without) college degrees who have read hundreds of documents and hundreds of books on the issue and pondered it for themselves and come to the conclusion that the Church is right are all stupid.

that story was written by Aloysius.  the following story was written by Snoopy:

"It was a dark and stormy night..."

hows that for different story tellers?  isn't that what this thread is about? 
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RESPONSE:

Oddly, I agree completely with what you say. Well, almost!

I only suggest that everyone carefully examine what they read or are told. Not automatically accept it without careful consideration.

And I used to be conceited. But now I'm perfect!

[LittleLes]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Jul 29 2005, 10:23 PM']Of course we can know God through His creation.  No one here would deny that.  However, the foundation of a relationship with God is faith, not reason.  You can't base a relationship with God on reason.  What you're doing is quoting out of context, and any uneducated cradle Catholic can see though it.

[/quote]

RESPONSE:

I'm afraid that we hare going to disagree here. However, you probably can find a number of Islamic fundamentalists who share your view.