Cam42 Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jul 23 2005, 09:27 PM']So what is the differance between Osama And Jimmy Stewart then? Jimmy Stewart Bombed civilians, and sent other men to do so. I see no moral differance between the 9/11 hijackers and the men who bombed Dresden , Ranault, etc, and on one score they are morally superior, all of their targets where military targets( however agian the weapon system itself was filled with unlawful targets). It is all very nice and simple to call them terrorist but really they are not, they are simply moslems fighting war in the way they have always fought it. They are not Christians and they are not Humanist they are infidels fighting a realitivly tame war as infidels go, I mean The Romans Salted the Earth of there enemy, the Aztecs ate them, the Muslims well remember North Africa was the Heart of the Early Christian Church. They are fighting according to the Traditions of their culture. Is that culture Evil--- Yes is the secular humanist culture evil as well-- yes. Don't diminish what is really going on here by simply calling it "terror" this is a fight for the future, it is a fight we don't really want either side to win, it is a fight WE as Catholics need to win, not for our country but for our Faith. [right][snapback]656153[/snapback][/right] [/quote] And where is your faith? If the Church is Jesus Christ, we have to believe that the Church will win in the end. I am not worried as to who will win, I am worried about all those who will be terrorized into losing their faith. The point is to terrorize, that is how it works....they don't want to convert, they don't want to do anything except scare us to unbelief..... What we need to do is have faith. The Church will win in the end, the Church is Jesus Christ. We are part of the mystical body and in the end, it will be the Church who stands. Am I afraid? In a word, NO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jul 23 2005, 08:27 PM']So what is the differance between Osama And Jimmy Stewart then? Jimmy Stewart Bombed civilians, and sent other men to do so. I see no moral differance between the 9/11 hijackers and the men who bombed Dresden , Ranault, etc, and on one score they are morally superior, all of their targets where military targets( however agian the weapon system itself was filled with unlawful targets). It is all very nice and simple to call them terrorist but really they are not, they are simply moslems fighting war in the way they have always fought it. They are not Christians and they are not Humanist they are infidels fighting a realitivly tame war as infidels go, I mean The Romans Salted the Earth of there enemy, the Aztecs ate them, the Muslims well remember North Africa was the Heart of the Early Christian Church. They are fighting according to the Traditions of their culture. Is that culture Evil--- Yes is the secular humanist culture evil as well-- yes. Don't diminish what is really going on here by simply calling it "terror" this is a fight for the future, it is a fight we don't really want either side to win, it is a fight WE as Catholics need to win, not for our country but for our Faith. [right][snapback]656153[/snapback][/right] [/quote] There is a difference between bombing military targets during a declared war with the goal being military victory over an agressive enemy (Nazi Germany). (Even if there were morally problematic elements). The 911 bombings were not a legitimate military action, but merely killing a lot of people to make a dramatic political statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 23 2005, 08:49 PM']There is a difference between bombing military targets during a declared war with the goal being military victory over an agressive enemy (Nazi Germany). (Even if there were morally problematic elements). The 911 bombings were not a legitimate military action, but merely killing a lot of people to make a dramatic political statement. [right][snapback]656161[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Why where they not militarily legitimate? Because they didn't fit what we westerners declare as legit now, Osama is a noble, according to most cultures through out history ( including oh say Catholic western Culture) Noblemen have every right to wage war. It is The West vs Osama and his Retainers, and that is certianly within his rights as recognized in Arab culture, and by the way he did officially declare war years before 9/11. As for WWII I am not talking about military targets I am talking about civilian nieghborhoods with the express intention of killing civilians the more the better, where do you think the rest of the world got the idea from? And we are an aggressive nation don't fool yourself, we have been militarly agressive since the 1820's and I don't see any reason to see why we would stop now. We are at war, but to simply dismiss it as murder or terror is foolish, Osama does not want to frighten us, he wants to destroy us that is what is at stake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Jul 23 2005, 08:39 PM']And where is your faith? If the Church is Jesus Christ, we have to believe that the Church will win in the end. I am not worried as to who will win, I am worried about all those who will be terrorized into losing their faith. The point is to terrorize, that is how it works....they don't want to convert, they don't want to do anything except scare us to unbelief..... What we need to do is have faith. The Church will win in the end, the Church is Jesus Christ. We are part of the mystical body and in the end, it will be the Church who stands. Am I afraid? In a word, NO. [right][snapback]656158[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Well lets see what is promised to us --- That the gates of Hell will not prevail agianst the Church--- I believe that, that doesn't mean the forces of Hell can't beat the hell out of Her. It is certianly possible that the Church will be 50 people hiding in a cave when Christ comes again, I would prefer that not be the case, I would prefer that we win this war, and all the others between now and the End. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jul 24 2005, 04:41 AM']Well lets see what is promised to us --- That the gates of Hell will not prevail agianst the Church--- I believe that, that doesn't mean the forces of Hell can't beat the hell out of Her. It is certianly possible that the Church will be 50 people hiding in a cave when Christ comes again, I would prefer that not be the case, I would prefer that we win this war, and all the others between now and the End. [right][snapback]656585[/snapback][/right] [/quote] And I believe that we are to follow the example of Christ and if need be have the snot beat out of us, just like He did at the hands of the Romans and Jews. And I believe the Church began as a small group numbering about 120 hiding in a room, did it not? [url="http://drbo.org/book/51.htm"]The Acts of the Apostles[/url] is a fantastic book....perhaps your analogy is a synopsis of the book? I am not concerned about the end result and I will not be terrorized. I think that if we all take this position, then we effectively disarm the terrorists and then the fighting will end, sooner rather than later. My Catholic faith tells me that I have nothing to fear, so I am not afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Jul 23 2005, 05:31 PM']I don't see anything mentioning mass murder as a motive. I see killing as a calculated motive to instill fear. Todd, I think that you are wrong on this one. Perhaps three dictionaries have this one right. And so do Carrie and hot stuff. Who is closer to the definiton of terrorism? Carrie. Terrorism is not about killing people. The end of terrorism is about instilling fear. Killing is a means to the end. Not the end itself, as you wrongly assert. It is about instilling fear. Murder is simply a by-product and makes it all the easier to denounce and fight terrorism, but murder is not the end, simply the means to the end. [right][snapback]656107[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Dictionary definitions do not determine the nature of reality. By the way, the use of the words "terrorist" and "terrorism" is a part of the problem, because Jamie and Carrie actually think that that these men are "terrorists" and that all they really only want to do is to instill fear in innocent people; but in reality these men are jihadists, i.e., they are mujahadin (soldiers) in a war, and the sooner that people in the West recognize that this is a war between Islamic zealots and the freedom loving peoples of the civilized world, the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Jul 23 2005, 02:42 PM']I would if their primary targets were not the largest symbols in our country. Unfortunately, they were. [right][snapback]656015[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Look, I can't make you recognize that the jihadist intention is to kill as many people as they can, but your failure to recognize reality doesn't change the fact that that is their primary goal. If you want to believe that the hijackers took the flights they did in order to minimize causalities, I can't make you accept the reality of the situation, i.e., that they were trying to kill as many people as possible and in as spectacular and unprecedented manner as possible. Fortunately, the civil authorities take the this war seriously and have acted in order to defend the common good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 24 2005, 08:43 AM']Dictionary definitions do not determine the nature of reality. [right][snapback]656646[/snapback][/right] [/quote] But language does and a dictionary defines what the language actually means. Terrorism does not equal murder. Murder does not equal terrorism. That is your position. That is erroneous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Jul 24 2005, 05:57 AM']But language does and a dictionary defines what the language actually means. Terrorism does not equal murder. Murder does not equal terrorism. That is your position. That is erroneous. [right][snapback]656653[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I thought you would want to reduce reality to dictionary definitions. What I said in my previous posts evidentily applies to you as well as to Jamie and Carrie: [quote]By the way, the use of the words "terrorist" and "terrorism" is a part of the problem, because Jamie and Carrie actually think that that these men are "terrorists" and that all they really only want to do is to instill fear in innocent people; but in reality these men are jihadists, i.e., they are mujahadin (soldiers) in a war, and the sooner that people in the West recognize that this is a war between Islamic zealots and the freedom loving peoples of the civilized world, the better.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 24 2005, 09:04 AM']I thought you would want to reduce reality to dictionary definitions. What I said in my previous posts evidentily applies to you as well as to Jamie and Carrie: [right][snapback]656658[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Give it up......the definitions are accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Jul 24 2005, 06:16 AM']Give it up......the definitions are accurate. [right][snapback]656668[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Cam, You know as well I do that giving a dictionary definition is not an argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 24 2005, 09:19 AM']Cam, You know as well I do that giving a dictionary definition is not an argument. [right][snapback]656671[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Yes, but it can help to define a position. And your position is incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Jul 24 2005, 07:17 AM']Yes, but it can help to define a position. And your position is incorrect. [right][snapback]656724[/snapback][/right] [/quote] The use of dictionary definitions proves only one thing, that the person knows how to use a dictionary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 24 2005, 10:29 AM']The use of dictionary definitions proves only one thing, that the person knows how to use a dictionary. [right][snapback]656743[/snapback][/right] [/quote] And read and understand the language, which it defines.....you forgot that part. You are being silly. Terrorism is not about murder, it is about instilling fear. By definition, Carrie is correct. By definition, you are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Jul 24 2005, 07:48 AM']And read and understand the language, which it defines.....you forgot that part. You are being silly. Terrorism is not about murder, it is about instilling fear. By definition, Carrie is correct. By definition, you are not. [right][snapback]656762[/snapback][/right] [/quote] As I've already said, dictionary definitions are not an argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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