Civil Rights

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 23 2005, 01:49 AM']Here is a text that more people should be familiar with:
I doubt many people on this forum have studied Islamic theology, but to understand the conflict our nation (and the entire West) has entered into, they better acquaint themselves with it quickly.
[right][snapback]655420[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


Well said.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 23 2005, 12:27 PM']Nowhere have I indicated that the 9-11 mass murders were all that bright about every issue, but if you really think that they tried to kill as few people as possible, that's fine.  The fact that the exacuation of the buildings went as well as it did and between 10 to 15 thousand people got out is a great testament to the work of the public officials in New York City.  The "terrorists" primary purpose is to murder as many people as they can, and by that massive death toll to cause fear, and until people in the West recognize that this is a war (a jihad), there will continue to be larger and larger numbers of causalities.
[right][snapback]655756[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


Also it may have come down to simple flight schedules. The terrorist chose planes that had enough fuel to go across the continent. I don't know what the flight schedules looked like at the time, but perhaps they simply chose the morning flights.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Jul 22 2005, 03:08 PM']wow...texas must be a weird place.  i've never seen that on the east coast.
[right][snapback]654659[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


Not really Children have no rights, so their right to privacy cannot be infringed, try doing that with adults here and well, Texas is a very heavily armed society and would use them.

[Don John of Austria]

Okay look The choices of times to hit the World trade center hasd to do with flight schedules and a desire to do as much damage as possible, therefore they chose to hijack transcontinintal flights ( they carry the most fuel) and tried to hijack them reasonably quickly (this is related to fuel use) they might have killed more if they had crashed them an hour later but they would have burned a lot of fuel and that would have done less damage. Fear was not the primary Goal here but niether was mass death, Both where secondary goals to the Primary Goal, symbolism, The WTC was NOT the center of the worlds finances crashing a plane into the Dow Jones would have been more effective as an economic disruption but it was symbolic of American domination of the world through financial means, further it housed many governmental offices( including paramilitary ones) and I would argue was probably a legitament military target ( the people on the planes themselves would not have been). They wanted to destroy them, simularly they wanted to destroy the White House even though Bush was not there and that was public knowledge-- it is symbolic of our nationhood. This is a war of religion Islam vs Secular Humanism and those where the symbols of the secular humanist State.
If fear was the Goal a lot more fear could have been engendered with 18 backpack bombs and carried by 18 people blowing up theaters and malls and schools all over the U.S. over a period of about a week, Westerners are rarely overawed by dramatic events, historicly we are much more likly to be worn down by small events over and over. Likewise more people could have been killed by waiting later in the day or by picking a more populous and crowded target, a football stadium on Game day for instance, no, Apotheoun is write this is a war and they are fighting it just like a war, the 9/11 strikes where as much to prove to potential allies that they where sufficisticated and capable as to create terror, there primary role however was to symbolicly defeat use y destroying the symbols of our power.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Kilroy the Ninja' date='Jul 23 2005, 12:37 PM']Also it may have come down to simple flight schedules.  The terrorist chose planes that had enough fuel to go across the continent.  I don't know what the flight schedules looked like at the time, but perhaps they simply chose the morning flights.
[right][snapback]655768[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

One of the flights began out of the Baltimore airport. I've flown in and out of that airport (as well as the others) often. I have no less than three choices per day for direct flights to Minnesota Monday through Friday with one airline alone.

Don John is right, they wanted to destroy the symbols of our culture. This was their primary goal.

No one seems to disagree btw that this is a war.

Edited July 23, 2005 by jaime

[Apotheoun]

Both American Airlines Flight 11 and United Airlines Flight 175 were out of Boston, and trying to argue that the hijackers should have waited 15 more minutes before slamming into the buildings is a rather bizarre comment. I suppose that the hijackers could have tried to just fly around aimlessly for an additional 15 minutes, but there were many contingencies that the hijackers themselves could not control. It is simply nonsensical to deny that the primary goal of the hijackers was to kill people.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 23 2005, 04:16 PM']Both American Airlines Flight 11 and United Airlines Flight 175 were out of Boston, and trying to argue that the hijackers should have waited 15 more minutes before slamming into the buildings is a rather bizarre comment.  I suppose that the hijackers could have tried to just fly around aimlessly for an additional 15 minutes, but there were many contingencies that the hijackers themselves could not control.  It is simply nonsensical to deny that the primary goal of the hijackers was to kill people.
[right][snapback]655995[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


It isn't nonsensical at all, there are more populous places than the World Trade center at 8:45 in the morning. Like the Superbowl! Killing people is a means not an end, the choice of targets was dictated by the symbolic nature of those Targets. Remember War is simply a branch of diplomacy, War is a way in which groups get what they want, and what they want is to destroy the Secular Humanist state ( not all and all a bad Goal, of course what they want to replace it with isn't so hot either)and these where the symbols of that state. Symbols are a standard target in warfare and a powerful one at that.

[Jaime]

I was wrong about one of the flights being out Baltimore. Sorry folks I get my trips to Baltimore confused with Newark. (similar business)

However, Newarks even better. There are seven direct flights with one airline alone. There are six directs every day out of Boston.

Its hardly nonsensical.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jul 23 2005, 02:26 PM']I was wrong about one of the flights being out Baltimore.  Sorry folks I get my trips to Baltimore confused with Newark. (similar business)

However, Newarks even better.  There are seven direct flights with one airline alone.  There are six directs every day out of Boston.

Its hardly nonsensical.
[right][snapback]656004[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Well, to argue about what flights they could have chosen is foolish, and it is evasive as well; just admit the fact that the primary goal of the hijackers was to kill people in a terrible act of war.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 23 2005, 04:40 PM']Well, to argue about what flights they could have chosen is foolish, and it is evasive as well; just admit the fact that the primary goal of the hijackers was to kill people in a terrible act of war.
[right][snapback]656012[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

I would if their primary targets were not the largest symbols in our country. Unfortunately, they were.

[Cam42]

Definiton:

[quote name='dictionary.com']ter·ror·ism (tr-rzm)
n.

The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.
(The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.)

Main Entry: ter·ror·ism
Pronunciation: 'ter-&r-"i-z&m
Function: noun
1 : the unlawful use or threat of violence esp. against the state or the public as a politically motivated means of attack or coercion
2 : violent and intimidating gang activity <street terrorism> —ter·ror·ist /-ist/ adj or noun —ter·ror·is·tic /"ter-&r-'is-tik/ adjective
(Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.)

terrorism

n : the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimindation or coercion or instilling fear [syn: act of terrorism, terrorist act]
(WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University)[/quote]


I don't see anything mentioning mass murder as a motive. I see killing as a calculated motive to instill fear. Todd, I think that you are wrong on this one. Perhaps three dictionaries have this one right. And so do Carrie and hot stuff.

[quote name='Carrie'] The primary purpose is to instill so much fear into a society that they cannot properly function, which weakens them, and makes them vulnerable in every aspect possible.[/quote]

[quote name='Appy']I read it, and you're quite simply in error. Terrorism is about killing people, and by that act instilling fear. It is murder, and I won't let you reduce it to something else.[/quote]

Who is closer to the definiton of terrorism? Carrie. Terrorism is not about killing people. The end of terrorism is about instilling fear. Killing is a means to the end. Not the end itself, as you wrongly assert. It is about instilling fear. Murder is simply a by-product and makes it all the easier to denounce and fight terrorism, but murder is not the end, simply the means to the end.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jul 23 2005, 07:31 PM']Definiton:
I don't see anything mentioning mass murder as a motive.  I see killing as a calculated motive to instill fear.  Todd, I think that you are wrong on this one.  Perhaps three dictionaries have this one right.  And so do Carrie and hot stuff.
Who is closer to the definiton of terrorism?  Carrie.  Terrorism is not about killing people.  The end of terrorism is about instilling fear.  Killing is a means to the end.  Not the end itself, as you wrongly assert.  It is about instilling fear.  Murder is simply a by-product and makes it all the easier to denounce and fight terrorism, but murder is not the end, simply the means to the end.
[right][snapback]656107[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

This is all rather silly quibbling in my opinion. Mass murder is mass murder, whatever ulterior motives the murderers/terrorists might have. I have no sympathy for the murderous terrorists.

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jul 23 2005, 09:00 PM']Not really Children have no rights,
[right][snapback]655871[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Wha?

[Cam42]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 23 2005, 08:43 PM']This is all rather silly quibbling in my opinion.  Mass murder is mass murder, whatever ulterior motives the murderers/terrorists might have.  I have no sympathy for the murderous terrorists.
[right][snapback]656117[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

And you totally missed the point.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 23 2005, 07:43 PM']This is all rather silly quibbling in my opinion.  Mass murder is mass murder, whatever ulterior motives the murderers/terrorists might have.  I have no sympathy for the murderous terrorists.
[right][snapback]656117[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


So what is the differance between Osama And Jimmy Stewart then? Jimmy Stewart Bombed civilians, and sent other men to do so. I see no moral differance between the 9/11 hijackers and the men who bombed Dresden , Ranault, etc, and on one score they are morally superior, all of their targets where military targets( however agian the weapon system itself was filled with unlawful targets). It is all very nice and simple to call them terrorist but really they are not, they are simply moslems fighting war in the way they have always fought it. They are not Christians and they are not Humanist they are infidels fighting a realitivly tame war as infidels go, I mean The Romans Salted the Earth of there enemy, the Aztecs ate them, the Muslims well remember North Africa was the Heart of the Early Christian Church. They are fighting according to the Traditions of their culture. Is that culture Evil--- Yes is the secular humanist culture evil as well-- yes. Don't diminish what is really going on here by simply calling it "terror" this is a fight for the future, it is a fight we don't really want either side to win, it is a fight WE as Catholics need to win, not for our country but for our Faith.