Civil Rights

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Jul 22 2005, 02:05 PM']
Read my last post please.
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I read it, and you're quite simply in error. Terrorism is about killing people, and by that act instilling fear. It is murder, and I won't let you reduce it to something else.

[Carrie]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 22 2005, 06:06 PM']Good, then I have made my point.  The murder of people is offensive and must not be reduced to some politically correct comments about trying to primarily create fear.
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Not actually.

I never insinuated that the death of terror victims wasn't muder and wasn't offensive to all people.

What I simply stated is the [b]primary[/b] goal of the terrorists is to create such fear that a society can no longer function.

That creates much more destruction and chaos than one terror attack ever could.

You need to look at the big picture.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Jul 22 2005, 02:09 PM']What I simply stated is the [b]primary[/b] goal of the terrorists is to create such fear that a society can no longer function.
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You are wrong, the primary goal is to kill. Making excuses for murder is reprehensible.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Jul 22 2005, 02:09 PM']You need to look at the big picture.
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The big picture is that we are presently in the opening stages of a world war. The sooner you recognize that the better.

[jmjtina]

Some schools don't even allow you to have a backpack.

I don't know. I see what your saying Carrie, it's not likely to prevent the act 100%, but it might help.

As for privacy, I'm also worried that the gov't is going to take away our privacy little by little.

However, checking backpacks IMHO, especially since the London bombings, is a pre-cautionary. Better safe than sorry. As a teacher, when things are being stolen, I start checking backpacks before they leave my room. Does it take alot of time to do? Yes. Will I get everything? Probably not. BUT, Does it does stop the theif from stealing? It actually does at least not as much anymore and less stuff. And the others are quick to report if they saw something in someone elses backpack and almost always I find my little felon. It's not only for me, but for the classroom as a whole because i emphasize the "classroom family".

If they are only checking backpacks, I'm not gonna complain.

As far as clear backpacks, as a teacher, I would rather have the kids with backpacks that didn't have clear stuff. Why? Because it's literally a trashcan.

As far as terroism goes, at school the primary goal is fear. Terroism on a national scale is killing and bombings. Either way, the main point is that terroism IS killing people. And when people are being killed and bombed, SOME action must be taken to ensure the saftey of those at risk.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 22 2005, 04:10 PM']You are wrong, the primary goal is to kill.  Making excuses for murder is reprehensible.
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Whoa!!

I've read through this three times now. Where are you reading that anyone is making excuses for murder?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jul 22 2005, 02:20 PM']Whoa!!

I've read through this three times now.  Where are you reading that anyone is making excuses for murder?
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I'm glad that you took the time to read the thread through three times, but you see I hold that the terrorists are primarily concerned with killing people, while Carrie believes that they simply want to scare people. Hopefully I have cleared up the confusion for you.

To reduce their murderous acts to acts of fear, rather than to see them as what they are, the killing of innocent people, is offensive to me. Perhaps it isn't to you, but it is to me.

God bless,
Todd

[Carrie]

[quote]You are wrong, the primary goal is to kill. Making excuses for murder is reprehensible.[/quote]

In no way, shape, or form did I make excuses for murder.

I have been personally affected by terrorism, so please do not assume that I do not consider it murder.

I lost a friend in the 9/11 attacks. Of course I believe that he was murdered, but my personal feelings do not change what terrorism is actually about.

Why do you think the World Trade Center was attacked? Because it was the financial center of the world. Terrorists hoped that the destruction of the WTC would paralyze our economy so much that we would literally be in a state of massive chaos.

If the goal was sheer numbers of dead, why not first attack after 9 am when the number of people in the buildings would have been much greater? Had the first attack happened just 15 minutes later, the number of people killed could have easily been 20,000 or more (considering approximately 40,000 worked in the buildings) instead of the 3,000 people killed.

Since you won't listen to me (I am reprehensible, after all right?), let's leave it to the experts shall we?

From: Terrorism with weapons of mass destruction: Chemical, biological, nuclear, radiological, and explosive agents.
Series Title: Review of psychiatry; vol. 22 no. 1

Author(s): Ursano, Robert J., Norwood, Ann E., Fullerton, Carol S.,
Holloway, Harry C., Hall, Molly.

[quote]The use of weapons of mass destruction by terrorists gained international attention after the Japanese cult Aum Shinrikyo released sarin gas in the Tokyo subway system in 1995. Concern was heightened when it was learned that the group had also released anthrax and had attempted to obtain the Ebola virus. In the U.S., the terrorist attacks of September 11th, 2001, and the letters containing anthrax spores that were mailed to media outlets and government officials in October that same year shattered Americans' belief that they were immune from such events. Although the terrorist attacks themselves were circumscribed, the psychological impact was widespread, resulting in a variety of psychological responses throughout the world. [b]Because the ultimate goals of terrorism are psychological and behavioral[/b], psychiatrists can make valuable contributions in helping their communities prepare for and respond to such attacks.[/quote]

From: Are terrorists mentally deranged?

Ruby, Charles L.; Analyses of Social Issues & Public Policy (ASAP), Vol 2(1), Dec 2002. pp. 15-26.


[quote]Recent terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center towers and the Pentagon have accentuated the threat of terrorism. However, it appears that the attackers are popularly thought of as mentally deranged individuals who are evil. This article suggests that such an understanding is a misperception of these people and may interfere with an adequate response to prevent future attacks. The article reviews the extant literature on psychological theories of terrorism and concludes that terrorists are not dysfunctional or pathological; [b]rather, it suggests that terrorism is basically another form of politically motivated violence that is perpetrated by rational, lucid people who have valid motives. The only real difference between terrorism and conventional military action is one of strategy. [/b]Terrorists lack the necessary resources to wage war in furtherance of their political goals.[/quote]


While I don't have this book at my disposal right now for quick referencing, I suggest you take a look at this as well if possible

[u]Understanding terrorism: Psychosocial roots, consequences, and interventions.[/u]
Ditzler, Thomas F., Dept of Psychiatry, Tripler Army Medical Ctr, Honolulu, HI, US

[benedictaj]

Thank you Carrie.

I don't really have an opinion, but I do think that the major aim of terrorists is to terrorise. Now, I don't live in America, so I'm not coming from the same point as you.

Although, I do think that making school kids have clear bags is a bit too much....

[Jaime]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Jul 22 2005, 06:42 PM']In no way, shape, or form did I make excuses for murder.

I have been personally affected by terrorism, so please do not assume that I do not consider it murder. 

I lost a friend in the 9/11 attacks.  Of course I believe that he was murdered, but my personal feelings do not change what terrorism is actually about.

Why do you think the World Trade Center was attacked?  Because it was the financial center of the world.  Terrorists hoped that the destruction of the WTC would paralyze our economy so much that we would literally be in a state of massive chaos.

If the goal was sheer numbers of dead, why not first attack after 9 am when the number of people in the buildings would have been much greater?  Had the first attack happened just 15 minutes later, the number of people killed could have easily been 20,000 or more (considering approximately 40,000 worked in the buildings) instead of the 3,000 people killed.

Since you won't listen to me (I am reprehensible, after all right?), let's leave it to the experts shall we?

From: Terrorism with weapons of mass destruction: Chemical, biological, nuclear, radiological, and explosive agents.
Series Title: Review of psychiatry; vol. 22 no. 1

Author(s): Ursano, Robert J., Norwood, Ann E., Fullerton, Carol S.,
Holloway, Harry C., Hall, Molly.
From: Are terrorists mentally deranged?

Ruby, Charles L.; Analyses of Social Issues & Public Policy (ASAP), Vol 2(1), Dec 2002. pp. 15-26.
While I don't have this book at my disposal right now for quick referencing, I suggest you take a look at this as well if possible

[u]Understanding terrorism: Psychosocial roots, consequences, and interventions.[/u]
Ditzler, Thomas F., Dept of Psychiatry, Tripler Army Medical Ctr, Honolulu, HI, US
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Hmm

Doesn't sound very naive to me....

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jul 22 2005, 05:38 PM']Hmm

Doesn't sound very naive to me....
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Perhaps that is because you buy into the same politically correct ideology that she does. Terrorism is primarily about mass murder, and only secondarily is it about causing fear; moreover, as far as its secondary goal is concerned, it is a failure. I have never feared riding on the BART system in the Bay Area, nor do I fear flying. So, as a tool of fear "terrorism" is a failure, but as a tool of murder, which is its primary goal, it is a great success. After all more than 3,000 innocent persons were killed on 9-11 alone.

The sooner people realize that we are in a war, the better. In fact this isn't really about causing "terror" at all, nor is it really a new war; rather, it is merely the most recent heating up of a war that began in 622 A.D., and it is a war which the Western world must win.

[Apotheoun]

Here is a text that more people should be familiar with:

[quote][b]Text of Hijacker Document[/b]

[i]WASHINGTON (Sept. 28) - Here is the complete text of the four-page document found in the luggage of Mohamed Atta, the 33-year-old Egyptian who helped hijack one of the two planes that hit the World Trade Center in New York on Sept. 11. This is a Reuters translation from handwritten Arabic. Portions in square brackets are explanatory additions. Other bracketed portions are bracketed in the original.[/i]


The Last Night:

1) Making an oath to die and renew your intentions.

- Shave excess hair from the body and wear cologne.

- Shower

2) Make sure you know all aspects of the plan well, and expect the response, or a reaction, from the enemy.

3) Read Al-Tawba and Anfal  [traditional war chapters from the Holy Qur'an] and reflect on their meanings and remember all of the things that God has promised for the martyrs.

4) Remind your soul to listen and obey  [all divine orders] and remember that you will face decisive situations that might prevent you from 100 percent obedience, so tame your soul, purify it, convince it, make it understand, and incite it. God said: "Obey God and His Messenger, and do not fight amongst yourselves or else you will fail. And be patient, for God is with the patient."

5) Pray during the night and be persistent in asking God to give you victory, control and conquest, and that He may make your task easier and protect us.

6) Remember God frequently, and the best way to do it is to read the Holy Qur'an, according to all scholars, as far as I know. It is enough for us that it  [the Qur'an] is the words of the Creator of the Earth and Heavens, the One that you will meet  [on the Day of Judgment].

7) Purify your soul from all blemishes. Completely forget something called "this world"  [or "this life"]. The time for play is over and the serious time is upon us. How much time have we wasted in our lives? Shouldn't we take advantage of these last hours to offer sacrifices and obedience?

8) You should feel complete tranquility, because the time between you and your marriage  [in heaven] is very short. Afterward begins the happy life, where God is satisfied with you, and eternal bliss "in the company of the prophets, the companions, the martyrs and the good people, who are the best company." Ask God for his mercy and be optimistic, because  [the Prophet], peace be upon him, used to prefer optimism in all his affairs.

9) Keep in mind that, if you fall into hardship, how will you act and how will you remain steadfast and remember that you will return to God and remember that anything that happens to you could never be avoided, and what did not happen to you could never have happened to you. This test from Almighty God is to raise your station and atone for your sins. And be sure that it is a matter of moments, which will then pass, God willing, so blessed are those who win the great reward of God. Almighty God said: "Did you think you could go to heaven before God knows whom amongst you have fought for Him and are patient?"

10) Remember the words of Almighty God: "You were looking to the battle before you engaged in it, and now you see it with your own two eyes." Remember: "How many small groups beat big groups by the will of God." And His words: "If God gives you victory, no one can beat you. And if He betrays you, who can give you victory without Him? So the faithful put their trust in God."

11) Remind yourself of the supplications and of your brethren and ponder their meanings. (The morning and evening supplications, and the supplications of  [entering] a town, and the  [unclear] supplications, and the supplications said before meeting the enemy.

12) Bless your body with some verses of the Qur'an  [done by reading verses into one's hands and then rubbing the hands over things over whatever is to be blessed], the luggage, clothes, the knife, your personal effects, your ID, your passport, and all of your papers.

13) Check your weapon before you leave and long before you leave. (One of you must sharpen his blade and you must not discomfort your animal during the slaughter).

14) Tighten your clothes well  [a reference to one making sure his clothes will cover his private parts at all times], since this is the way of the pious generations after the Prophet. They would tighten their clothes before battle. Tighten your shoes well, wear socks so that your feet will be solidly in your shoes and do not stick out. All of these are worldly things  [that humans can do to control their fate, although God decrees what will work and what won't] and the rest is left to God, the best One to depend on.

15) Pray the morning prayer in a group and ponder the great rewards of that prayer. Make supplications afterward, and do not leave your apartment unless you have performed ablution before leaving, because (The angels will ask for your forgiveness as long as you are in a state of ablution, and will pray for you). This saying of the Prophet was mentioned by An-Nawawi in his book, The Best of Supplications. Read the words of God: "Did you think that We created you for no reason" from the Al-Mu'minun Chapter.

The second step:

When the taxi takes you to (M)  [this initial could stand for matar, airport in Arabic] remember God constantly while in the car. (Remember the supplication for entering a car, for entering a town, the supplication of place and other supplications).

When you have reached (M) and have left the taxi, say a supplication of place  ["Oh Lord, I ask you for the best of this place, and ask you to protect me from its evils"], and everywhere you go say that prayer and smile and be calm, for God is with the believers. And the angels protect you without you feeling anything. Say this supplication: "God is more dear than all of His creation." And say: "Oh Lord, protect me from them as You wish." And say: "Oh Lord, take your anger out on them  [the enemy] and we ask You to protect us from their evils." And say: "Oh Lord, block their vision from in front of them, so that they may not see." And say: "God is all we need, He is the best to rely upon." Remember God's words: "Those to whom the people said, 'The people have gathered to get you, so fear them,' but that only increased their faith and they said, God is all we need, He is the best to rely upon." After you say that, you will find  [unclear] as God promised this to his servants who say this supplication:

1) They will come back  [from battle] with God's blessings

2) They were not harmed

3) And God was satisfied with them.

God says: "They came back with God's blessings, they were not harmed, and God was satisfied with them, and God is ever-blessing."

All of their equipment and gates and technology will not prevent, nor harm, except by God's will. The believers do not fear such things. The only ones that fear it are the allies of Satan, who are the brothers of the devil. They have become their allies, God save us, for fear is a great form of worship, and the only one worthy of it is God. He is the only one who deserves it. He said in the verses: "This is only the Devil scaring his allies" who are fascinated with Western civilization, and have drunk the love  [of the West] like they drink water  [unclear] and have become afraid of their weak equipment "so fear them not, and fear Me, if you are believers."

Fear is a great worship. The allies of God do not offer such worship except for the one God, who controls everything.
[unclear] with total certainty that God will weaken the schemes of the non-believers. God said: "God will weaken the schemes of the non-believers."

You must remember your brothers with all respect  [?]. No one should notice that you are making the supplication, "There is no God but God," because if you say it 1,000 times no one will be able to tell whether you are quiet or remember God. And among its miracles is what the Prophet, peace be upon him, said: (Whoever says, 'There is no God but God,' with all his heart, goes to heaven." The prophet, peace be upon him, said:
(If you put all the worlds and universes on one side of the balance, and "No God but God" on the other, "No God but God" will weigh more heavily." You can repeat these words confidently, and this is just one of the strengths of these words. Whoever thinks deeply about these words will find that they have no dots  [in the Arabic letter] and this is just one of its greatnesses, for words that have dots in them carry less weight than those that do not. And it is enough that these are the words of monotheism, which will make you steadfast in battle  [unclear] as the prophet, peace be upon him, and his companions, and those who came after them, God willing, until the Day of Judgment.

Also, do not seem confused or show signs of nervous tension. Be happy, optimistic calm because you are heading for a deed that God loves and will accept  [as a good deed]. It will be the day, God willing, you spend with the women of paradise.

[poetry]

Smile in the face of hardship, young man / For you are heading toward eternal paradise

You must remember to make supplications wherever you go, and anytime you do anything, and God is with his faithful servants, He will protect them and make their tasks easier, and give them success and control, and victory, and everything

The Third Phase:

When you ride the (T)  [probably for tayyara, airplane in Arabic], before your foot steps in it, and before you enter it, you make a prayer and supplications. Remember that this is a battle for the sake of God. As the prophet, peace be upon him, said: (An action for the sake of God is better than all of what is in this world), or as he said. When you step inside the (T), and sit in your seat, begin with the known supplications that we have mentioned before. Be busy with the constant remembrance of God. God said: "Oh ye faithful, when you find the enemy be steadfast, and remember God constantly so that you may be successful." When the (T) moves, even slightly, toward (Q)
[unknown reference], say the supplication of travel. Because you are traveling to Almighty God, so be attentive on this trip.

Then  [unclear] and then it takes off. This is the moment that both groups come together. So remember God, as He said in His book: "Oh Lord, pour your patience upon us and make our feet steadfast and give us victory over the infidels." And His words: "And the only thing they said Lord, forgive our sins and excesses and make our feet steadfast and give us victory over the infidels." And His prophet said: "Oh Lord, You have revealed the book, You move the clouds, You gave us victory over the enemy, conquer them and give us victory over them." Give us victory and make the ground shake under their feet. Pray for yourself and all of your brothers that they may be victorious and hit their targets and  [unclear] and ask God to grant you martyrdom facing the enemy, not running away from it, and for Him to grant you patience and the feeling that anything that happens to you is for Him.

Then every one of you should prepare to carry out his role in a way that would satisfy God. You should clench your teeth, as the pious early generations did.

When the confrontation begins, strike like champions who do not want to go back to this world. Shout, "Allahu Akbar," because this strikes fear in the hearts of the non-believers. God said: "Strike above the neck, and strike at all of their extremities." [cf., Qu'ran 8:12] Know that the gardens of paradise are waiting for you in all their beauty, and the women of paradise are waiting, calling out, "Come hither, friend of God." They have dressed in their most beautiful clothing.

If God decrees that any of you are to slaughter, you should dedicate the slaughter to your fathers and  [unclear], because you have obligations toward them. Do not disagree, and obey. If you slaughter, do not cause the discomfort of those you are killing, because this is one of the practices of the Prophet, peace be upon him. On one condition: that you do not become distracted by  [unclear] and neglect what is greater, paying attention to the enemy. That would be treason, and would do more damage than good. If this happens, the deed at hand is more important than doing that, because the deed is an obligation, and  [the other thing] is optional. And an obligation has priority over an option.

Do not seek revenge for yourself. Strike for God's sake. One time Ali bin Abi Talib  [a companion and close relative of the prophet Muhammad], may God bless him, fought with a non-believer. The non-believer spat on Ali, may God bless him. Ali  [unclear] his sword, but did not strike him. When the battle was over, the companions of the prophet asked him why he had not smitten the non-believer. He said, "After he spat at me, I was afraid that I would be striking at him in revenge for myself, so I lifted my sword." After he renewed his intentions, he went back and killed the man. This means that before you do anything, make sure that your soul is prepared to do everything for God only.

Then implement the way of the prophet in taking prisoners. Take prisoners and kill them. As Almighty God said: "No prophet should have prisoners until he has soaked the land with blood. You want the bounties of this world  [in exchange for prisoners] and God wants the other world  [for you], and God is all-powerful, all-wise." [cf., Qu'ran 8:67]

If everything goes well, every one of you should pat the other on the shoulder in confidence that (M) and (T) number (K). Remind your brothers that this act is for Almighty God. Do not confuse your brothers or distract them. He should give them glad tidings and make them calm, and remind them  [of God] and encourage them. How beautiful it is for one to read God's words, such as: "And those who prefer the afterlife over this world should fight for the sake of God." And His words: "Do not suppose that those who are killed for the sake of God are dead; they are alive" And others. Or they should sing songs to boost their morale, as the pious first generations did in the throes of battle, to bring calm, tranquility and joy to the hearts of his brothers.

Do not forget to take a bounty, even if it is a glass of water to quench your thirst or that of your brothers, if possible. When the hour of reality approaches, the zero hour,
[unclear] and wholeheartedly welcome death for the sake of God. Always be remembering God. Either end your life while praying, seconds before the target, or make your last words: "There is no God but God, Muhammad is His messenger".

Afterward, we will all meet in the highest heaven, God willing.

If you see the enemy as strong, remember the groups  [that had formed a coalition to fight the prophet Muhammad]. They were 10,000. Remember how God gave victory to his faithful servants. God said: "When the faithful saw the groups, they said, this is what God and the prophet promised, they said the truth. It only increased their faith."

And may the peace of God be upon the Prophet.[/quote]
I doubt many people on this forum have studied Islamic theology, but to understand the conflict our nation (and the entire West) has entered into, they better acquaint themselves with it quickly.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 23 2005, 01:25 AM']Perhaps that is because you buy into the same politically correct ideology that she does.  Terrorism is primarily about mass murder, and only secondarily is it about causing fear; moreover, as far as its secondary goal is concerned, it is a failure.  I have never feared riding on the BART system in the Bay Area, nor do I fear flying.  So, as a tool of fear "terrorism" is a failure, but as a tool of murder, which is its primary goal, it is a great success.  [b]After all more than 3,000 innocent persons were killed on 9-11 alone.[/b]

The sooner people realize that we are in a war, the better.  In fact this isn't really about causing "terror" at all, nor is it really a new war; rather, it is merely the most recent heating up of a war that began in 622 A.D., and it is a war which the Western world must win.
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Since you decided to respond to me and not to Carrie, I'll pose her question again. If terrorism's primary goal is murder, why didn't they hit the Towers later in the day when there were 40,000 people? Further, why was the government concerned that the White House and US Capital building was the target for the plane that went down in the field?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jul 23 2005, 08:10 AM']Since you decided to respond to me and not to Carrie, I'll pose her question again.  If terrorism's primary goal is murder, why didn't they hit the Towers later in the day when there were 40,000 people? Further,  why was the government concerned that the White House and  US Capital building was the target for the plane that went down in the field?
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Nowhere have I indicated that the 9-11 mass murders were all that bright about every issue, but if you really think that they tried to kill as few people as possible, that's fine. The fact that the exacuation of the buildings went as well as it did and between 10 to 15 thousand people got out is a great testament to the work of the public officials in New York City. The "terrorists" primary purpose is to murder as many people as they can, and by that massive death toll to cause fear, and until people in the West recognize that this is a war (a jihad), there will continue to be larger and larger numbers of causalities.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jul 23 2005, 08:10 AM']Further,  why was the government concerned that the White House and  US Capital building was the target for the plane that went down in the field?
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Again, as I have said already, this is a war; it isn't just a small group of Irishmen dissatisfied with British rule in Northern Ireland. This is a war of civilizations, and the point of the war is to kill as many people as possible, but also to attack our government, and what better way to do that, than to destroy the Congress.