Serious Question

[Aloysius]

depending on how you define "liberalism", yes it is a sin. read the book Liberalismo es Pecado

[url="http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/dissent/libissin.htm"]http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/dissent/libissin.htm[/url]

however, CF defines liberalism erroneously to include MAKING FUN of the fact that size enhancement pills are a scam and a waste of anyone's time... liberalism is a sin but not humor

[quote]"Liberalism is the dogmatic affirmation of the absolute independence of the individual and of the social reason. Catholicity is the dogma of the absolute subjection of the individual and of the social order to the revealed law of God. One doctrine is the exact antithesis of the other. They are opposites in direct conflict." (Ch. 6).[/quote]

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Catholic Fanatic' date='Jul 20 2005, 01:07 PM']Let's not water things down people. This person would be guilty of the sin of murder. This person had the desire to kill the person and would have given how you described it. You were wishy washy in your desription, but you have said enough. If the killee was in front of the killer, the killee would have been murdered. Just like after a murder, you can decide it was not a good idea, after a would have murder, you can decide it was not a good idea. Jesus said, he who hates his brother is guilty of murder. If you wanted to kill someone, you must be angry with them, or at any rate you wanted to kill them. If this was you in the hyothetical, you would burn in the fires of hell, where there'd be wailing and gnashing of teeth, if you did not repent from the murder. You would not be released until you have paid the last penny.
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You sound like a Thomist. That's good, because I am one.

Thomas would say here that you have to separate two things:
[b]1) The object of the exterior act of the will[/b]
This refers to the actual act itself. There is a difference between the external and internal.

[b]2) The object of the interior act of the will[/b]
This refers to how the person perceives the act. This is separate from the act in that they can be different. I may donate money to the Church. You see a very good act. However, I may donate so that my boss will see it (who's sitting beside me) and possibly give me a bonus, which I want so I can go on a cruise for fun. There's evil in that act, in that the two don't line up.

I made that distinction just so that you can see that the two are different, whereas you seem to want to make them the same. In this case the person would be guilty of ill thought towards a person, and may have wished the death of someone, but they are far less culpable since there was no actual murder. I doubt that it would even be a mortal sin because there was no action, just thought. And normally thought is less controllable than actions.

Hope that clears up some confusion in here.

[qfnol31]

By the way, true liberalism is not a sin. It's just been perverted.

[Catholic Fanatic]

There are those here at phatmass who are on a one way ticket to hell. Sadly many know who you are. Don't say I didn't warn you. If I were to see you after this life, I would say, Depart from me you evildoer, into the fires created for the devil and his minions.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='bx_racer' date='Jul 21 2005, 07:20 PM']alright i dont see how a political viewpoint will send you to hell
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[/quote]

Liberalism here has to do with taking Catholic teaching from a "liberal" point of view... it other words twisting the meaning.

For example, thinking it's ok to use condoms or birth control pills because sex is also for the bonding of the husband and wife is a liberal point of view - which is a twisting of the teaching to the point of error.

Not as in politics.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Catholic Fanatic' date='Jul 21 2005, 11:49 PM']There are those here at phatmass who are on a one way ticket to hell. Sadly many know who you are. Don't say I didn't warn you. If I were to see you after this life, I would say, Depart from me you evildoer, into the fires created for the devil and his minions.
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Bro,
We don't know why they sin. We cannot see into their hearts... we can let them know that their souls are in grave danger, meaning that they could go to hell, but I do think you are going over the line a little with saying that they know they'll go to hell.

Some of the people here are pretty young and have a lot of learning to do, their maturity is still developing and as they get closer to twenty five they should start to wise up. Remember, maybe they are the way that they are so that the Lord God can use them to show how great His mercy is. All we can do is try to convince them of where they are wrong and pray for them. Softly at first, but with time things need to get to the point. Sometimes we should try different approaches, but telling someone that they will go to hell will close them up... saying that their soul is in grave danger and why, might get through to them.

Believe me, I understand how frustrating it can be when people turn their backs on Christ and they possibly can't realize what grave error they are commiting because it is spiritual suicide. We can lead horses to water, but we can't make them drink. Try not to take things to personally, and just pray for them.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[bx_racer]

[quote name='Catholic Fanatic' date='Jul 21 2005, 08:49 PM']There are those here at phatmass who are on a one way ticket to hell. Sadly many know who you are. Don't say I didn't warn you. If I were to see you after this life, I would say, Depart from me you evildoer, into the fires created for the devil and his minions.
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mmm how encouraging for them

[Quietfire]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jul 20 2005, 01:39 PM']I don't know if anyone has ever brought this up before, but if a person has every intention of comnitting a sin, any sin,
or maybe not every intention
but has pretty much given over to the idea of sinning say i was like p
yeah i think i'm gonna kill my sister now
and then something interupts
say actual grace disguised as a phone call or something haha...
but seriously ...
say you thought yes i'm pretty sure i am going to kill her
but then you don't...
and then after the phone call
you decide not to and you look back and wonder if you haden't been interupted if you would re-decided

sin is an act of the will and if I did will to kill her... am i guilty of the sin of murder???
but what if that was just
step ONE of the reasoning that got interupted...
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I didnt see any repentance in this post. Simply deciding not to commit the sin doesnt exclude you from the fact that you, in your heart, in your mind, committed the sin.

This post simply stated that she decided not to...no reason. Not 'changed my mind' which would have indicated a possible change of heart=repentance. "decided not to" could mean many things. But since it wasnt explicit, we can only go by that.
"actual grace disguised as a phone call" Well, yeah maybe God arranged for the call to distract you, to slow ya down, or to stop you altoghter. But the person doesnt actually realize that at this point, otherwise she may have stated it.

Im still sticking with my original decision.

Pax

Edited July 22, 2005 by Quietfire

[Semperviva]

ok- lol- to clarify
reason not to= ulitmately not wanting to offend God, even though the orginal decision was to do so and commit the sin...but the ultimate decision was no... she is alive today

[Quietfire]

Ok if I add your above post to your original statement then my next question is...

"Reason not to-ultimately not wanting to offend God."

Out of love or fear of eternal damnation.
Your answer makes all the difference.

If we change our mind because we love God so much that we see God in our neighbor (sister) and realizing that hurting neighbor is the same as hurting God Himself, then that is exceptable and good, and a just and perfect contrition.
If we change our mind because we dont wish to offend God and have a fear that we will end up in hell, then that is not perfect contrition.

ALL things must be done for love of God or it dont mean diddly.

Pax

Edited July 23, 2005 by Quietfire

[dairygirl4u2c]

CF does an interesting job bashing liberals tho

[rkwright]

I realize this is an old post, but in rereading all of it I am left between the options without a clear answer. It would help if a clergy member would weigh in.

I see both sides; it seems that if you change your mind, you have "battled sin" and won.

On the other hand, sin seems to be in the intent. Say for example if I do actually try to shoot (murder) someone, but miss, or the gun misfires, or the person doesn't die. Surely I am still guilty of murder even if the person hasn't been killed. Sin in the intent? Or the act?