Semperviva Posted July 20, 2005 Author Share Posted July 20, 2005 [quote name='Quietfire' date='Jul 20 2005, 01:21 PM']Actually, I do believe, according to Semper's original post, that yes...she would be guilty of sin. You see, she starts to reason it out in the end. BUT< the intent was to cause the death of another human. I have to check on this, but I am pretty sure that this would definitely require a trip to the confessional. Just because there was an interuption in the thought does not exclude the fact that the thought was not only being entertained but accepted as such -yeah, gonna kill her- that the intent was also there. [right][snapback]651176[/snapback][/right] [/quote] yeah this makes sense you read correctly--- but its the sin of 'unjust anger" but def. a sin... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilgrim Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 [quote name='Quietfire' date='Jul 20 2005, 01:21 PM']I have to check on this, but I am pretty sure that this would definitely require a trip to the confessional. [/quote] I doubt a trip to the confessional is even necessary. One is only required to confess one's sins in the event that a mortal sin has been committed. In this case, the conditions for a mortal sin have not been met. [quote][b]CCC[/b]: 1857: For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also [b]committed [/b]with full knowledge and deliberate consent." [/quote] Notice the verb "committed." In this case, no act was performed, so a mortal sin was not committed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 Im tellin' ya. This book Im reading is GREAT. Colleen can testify to it. "Our Faith Explained" by Leo Trese. There was a whole section on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 [quote name='Catholic Fanatic' date='Jul 20 2005, 03:07 PM']Let's not water things down people. This person would be guilty of the sin of murder. This person had the desire to kill the person and would have given how you described it. You were wishy washy in your desription, but you have said enough. If the killee was in front of the killer, the killee would have been murdered. Just like after a murder, you can decide it was not a good idea, after a would have murder, you can decide it was not a good idea. Jesus said, he who hates his brother is guilty of murder. If you wanted to kill someone, you must be angry with them, or at any rate you wanted to kill them. If this was you in the hyothetical, you would burn in the fires of hell, where there'd be wailing and gnashing of teeth, if you did not repent from the murder. You would not be released until you have paid the last penny. [right][snapback]651144[/snapback][/right] [/quote] if the person would have stopped on their own just before the act then they would not be guilty... if they had the real intent on killing, then the phone would not have stopped him and/or he would have killed her right after the call. Changing of the mind from murder is repenting, doesn't matter what causes someone to change their mind. God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semperviva Posted July 20, 2005 Author Share Posted July 20, 2005 iron monk rocks woohoo thanks pilgrim and soc too----i mean [color=purple]thanks every one-[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bx_racer Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 [quote name='ironmonk' date='Jul 20 2005, 11:52 AM']Intent is part of sin, you might be guilty of unjust anger, but since you didn't go through with the sin, then you are not guilty of that sin.... now, say if you were locked up for the rest of your life and you wanted to kill your sister and you died wanting to kill your sister, then you would be guilty of the sin. Not sure what sin that you are in a dilemma with, but if it involves someone else, remember that we must forgive everything and everyone if we want to be forgiven by God when we die.... this includes the most horrible sins against us.... this includes people like Hitler, Osama Bin Laden, John Kerry, Bill Clinton, Howard Stern, my mother in law, etc... God Bless! ironmonk [right][snapback]651120[/snapback][/right] [/quote] yeah u forgot cheap people who kick you out of skate spots. i hope none of you guys are like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 Wrong. Interiorly she is guilty. Therefore, it is a formal sin. She may not have committed the act, which would have been a material sin, but she committed a formal sin. A person [i]can[/i] commit a sin interiorly without actually doing it outwardly. If a person decided that they are going to kill someone, made up their mind (Yeah, Im gonna kill my sister) and then 'got interrupted'...it is still a sin of murder(formal). The fact that she decided not to do it is not enough, since it was never specified in her post as to why she decided not to. She only stated that the phone rang and interrupted her. In her mind, she killed her sister, yet outwardly she didnt. One is guilty of the sin the moment one makes up their mind to commit the sin-choosing self over God- even though actually she didnt get the chance or later changed her mind. Even a changed mind cannot wipe out sin. If a man today decided today to commit murder tomorrow and then tomorrow had a change of heart and decided not to - there still would be yesterdays mortal sin upon his soul. Todays's good resolution cannot wipe out yesterdays evil intent. We are supposing , of course, that his mind in the first instance was definitely made up. We are not talking here of a person who may be undergoing severe temptation, a person who may struggle with himself for hours or even days. If such a person finally gains the victory over self and says a definite "NO!" to the temptation, he has committed no sin. I am only going by the original post, I cannot and will not read any more into it that what she stated and by her words in that post alone, she is guilty of a formal sin. So its off to the confessional. Pax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semperviva Posted July 21, 2005 Author Share Posted July 21, 2005 [quote name='Quietfire' date='Jul 21 2005, 11:26 AM']Wrong. Interiorly she is guilty. Therefore, it is a formal sin. She may not have committed the act, which would have been a material sin, but she committed a formal sin. A person [i]can[/i] commit a sin interiorly without actually doing it outwardly. If a person decided that they are going to kill someone, made up their mind (Yeah, Im gonna kill my sister) and then 'got interrupted'...it is still a sin of murder(formal). The fact that she decided not to do it is not enough, since it was never specified in her post as to why she decided not to. She only stated that the phone rang and interrupted her. In her mind, she killed her sister, yet outwardly she didnt. One is guilty of the sin the moment one makes up their mind to commit the sin-choosing self over God- even though actually she didnt get the chance or later changed her mind. Even a changed mind cannot wipe out sin. If a man today decided today to commit murder tomorrow and then tomorrow had a change of heart and decided not to - there still would be yesterdays mortal sin upon his soul. Todays's good resolution cannot wipe out yesterdays evil intent. We are supposing , of course, that his mind in the first instance was definitely made up. We are not talking here of a person who may be undergoing severe temptation, a person who may struggle with himself for hours or even days. If such a person finally gains the victory over self and says a definite "NO!" to the temptation, he has committed no sin. I am only going by the original post, I cannot and will not read any more into it that what she stated and by her words in that post alone, she is guilty of a formal sin. So its off to the confessional. Pax. [right][snapback]652607[/snapback][/right] [/quote] [i] hmm ok well during and after the phone call i think, hhhmm, this isin't really worth it, no this is wrong, no, nevermind...like that.....so it sound like this is what happened in the situation u described...woohoo[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilgrim Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Quietfire' date='Jul 21 2005, 11:26 AM']Wrong. Interiorly she is guilty. Therefore, it is a formal sin. She may not have committed the act, which would have been a material sin, but she committed a formal sin. A person [i]can[/i] commit a sin interiorly without actually doing it outwardly. If a person decided that they are going to kill someone, made up their mind (Yeah, Im gonna kill my sister) and then 'got interrupted'...it is still a sin of murder(formal). [right][snapback]652607[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Sorry to say it, but you haven't convinced me. Find a justification for your position in the Catechism, then I might be swayed. Otherwise, I don't think I'm out of line by saying that in order for a person to be [i]guilty [/i]of the sin of murder, the person must have actually [i]committed [/i]the act of murder. Murder is a mortal sin because it involves the death of another person -- no death, no mortal sin. She is indeed guilty of a sin, but not the mortal sin of murder. [quote] [b]CCC[/b]: 2268 The fifth commandment forbids [i]direct [/i]and [i]intentional [/i]killing as gravely sinful. The murderer and those who cooperate voluntarily in murder commit a sin that cries out to heaven for vengeance. [/quote] Edited July 21, 2005 by Pilgrim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 (edited) eh,eh,eh. I did not say mortal sin of murder.(material)=actually killed her sister outwardly. I said murder(formal).= interiorly killed her sister and resolved to do it outwardly. In her mind, she killed her sister. In her mind, her sister was dead by her own hands. This is premeditated, this is the sin. Because of the gravity of this thought, it should be told to a priest. Dont have my Catachism but Im pretty sure. I will check on it. Look, were not talking about getting angry with sis and thinking, "wish you were dead" kinda thoughts. I am only going by her original post. Pax Edited July 21, 2005 by Quietfire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 The Catachism does not delve into this aspect. But it does say, II. The Definition of Sin 1849 [b]Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience[/b]; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. [b]It has been defined as "an utterance, a deed, or a [i]desire[/i] contrary to the eternal law."[/b]121 Even when we repent we must do so interiorly: Conversion requires convincing of sin; it includes the interior judgment of conscience, and this, being a proof of the action of the Spirit of truth in man's inmost being, becomes at the same time the start of a new grant of grace and love: "Receive the Holy Spirit." Thus in this "convincing concerning sin" we discover a double gift: the gift of the truth of conscience and the gift of the certainty of redemption. The Spirit of truth is the Consoler.120 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 Maybe asking a priest to read this thread would help. Just to settle whether or not a sin has been committed. Pax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catholic Fanatic Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 (edited) [quote]if the person would have stopped on their own just before the act then they would not be guilty... if they had the real intent on killing, then the phone would not have stopped him and/or he would have killed her right after the call. Changing of the mind from murder is repenting, doesn't matter what causes someone to change their mind. [/quote] A person is guilty of murder if they have the intent to kill. If the person changes their mind before killing, they have repented from murder. I agree the person in the hypothetical has repented. The reason I mentioned the person must repent is show the grave nature of the situation and to knock some sense into you people: A person who desires and intends to kill has *committed* the desire and intent to kill. The CCC says that it must be direct and intentional because often times people kill others not directly and intentionally, such as in abortion issues and other things. Those who we are talking about have commited the direct and intentional desire/intent to kill, which is just as bad as killing in Terrible Judge's Just Judgement. Quietfire has it right to show the desire passage, and we're not just talking about sex type things here. [quote]This Fanatic fellow's rather interesting. He recently condemned me to hell for not properly heeding his words regarding penis pills. [/quote] Come on people, get a clue. It's sad that liberalism at phatmass is going well beyond the protestants.. Edited July 21, 2005 by Catholic Fanatic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catholic Fanatic Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 And make no mistake about it: such liberalism is a sin. Those who engage unrepented to death in liberalism are guilty and will be punished in the fires of hell, where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. They will not be released until they have paid the last penny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bx_racer Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 alright i dont see how a political viewpoint will send you to hell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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