Questions For The Cathlics...

[mulls]

just wanted to get that out of the way brother. no malice intended.

[dUSt]

just wanted to get that out of the way brother. no malice intended.

I know.

[Jake Huether]

"I'm not sure whether the soul is infused with Divine knowledge before or after the stains of sin have been purged...Perhaps this knowledge is a gift earned once one enters heaven, or perhaps it is infused as the stain of sin diminishes...who knows? I think it's all speculation. If the Church made a declaration on this subject, I'd submit to it, but I'm not aware that She has."

I was under the assumption that Divine Knowledge must be present before one can enter Heaven. Take for instance the knowledge of intercession of the Saints. If I've died as a protestant in denial of intercession of the Saints, yet enter into heaven and start to intercede, I must have picked up the knowledge somewhere. And since there is no other "state" other then earth, Purgatory, Heaven, then it must occure in Purgatory. I thought that that was a simple deduction.

I understand that the Church doesn't "teach" specifically that knowledge is gained in Purgatory. However, the Church also doesn't specifically "teach" whether or not evolution is true. But, as you know, we are free to either accept or reject evolution.

I guess my frustration up to this point (lets hope not beyond) is that Likos is implying that I am *wrong*. I'm not trying to say that I'm *right*. We won't know who's right till we get there, I suppose. But if you look throught the Catechism and ALL the Church docs. you won't find anything REFUTING what I've said. You may not find anything at all, but you wont find anything in contradiction. And the fact of the matter is there are more people than just me that believe this (Dominic Berardino for one), and they are really orthodox!

Likos and you are simply taking the stance that "if it's not in the book, then I won't believe it". There's nothing wrong with that at all. I on the other hand am taking the stance that "if it's not in the book, then I am free to deduce certain things as long as they are not in contradiciton", which is also okay. Just like in many cases, including but not limited to evolution. I don't like being told I'm wrong - or made to feel as though I'm doing something contrary to my Holy Mother Church - when there is only evidence to support the claim that I "might" be wrong.

Incidentally, you brought up Judgment. Is there a doc about Judgment that I might educate myself about. That was an excelent point. If the Lord shows us our mistakes, and that which we didn't know, then upon entrance into Purgatory we would be purged of the stains of sin which keep us from understanding. Then we could enter Heaven 1) Pure, and 2) with a FULL knowledge of the Truth.

I hadn't thought about the Judgment (there are two, Particular and *the word escapes me at the moment*). One of them occurs at our death. And one occurs at our resurrection. So, thanks Anna for your post!

It just didn't make sense to me that one would die, be purified, yet not be given any sort of knowlede of the Truth before getting into heaven (where we know they know the Truth!). That's why I lumped it into purgatory. But you cleared that up.

[Jake Huether]

"I'm not sure whether the soul is infused with Divine knowledge before or after the stains of sin have been purged...Perhaps this knowledge is a gift earned once one enters heaven, or perhaps it is infused as the stain of sin diminishes...who knows? I think it's all speculation. If the Church made a declaration on this subject, I'd submit to it, but I'm not aware that She has."

I was under the assumption that Divine Knowledge must be present before one can enter Heaven. Take for instance the knowledge of intercession of the Saints. If I've died as a protestant in denial of intercession of the Saints, yet enter into heaven and start to intercede, I must have picked up the knowledge somewhere. And since there is no other "state" other then earth, Purgatory, Heaven, then it must occure in Purgatory. I thought that that was a simple deduction.

I understand that the Church doesn't "teach" specifically that knowledge is gained in Purgatory. However, the Church also doesn't specifically "teach" whether or not evolution is true. But, as you know, we are free to either accept or reject evolution.

I guess my frustration up to this point (lets hope not beyond) is that Likos is implying that I am *wrong*. I'm not trying to say that I'm *right*. We won't know who's right till we get there, I suppose. But if you look throught the Catechism and ALL the Church docs. you won't find anything REFUTING what I've said. You may not find anything at all, but you wont find anything in contradiction. And the fact of the matter is there are more people than just me that believe this (Dominic Berardino for one), and they are really orthodox!

Likos and you are simply taking the stance that "if it's not in the book, then I won't believe it". There's nothing wrong with that at all. I on the other hand am taking the stance that "if it's not in the book, then I am free to deduce certain things as long as they are not in contradiciton", which is also okay. Just like in many cases, including but not limited to evolution. I don't like being told I'm wrong - or made to feel as though I'm doing something contrary to my Holy Mother Church - when there is only evidence to support the claim that I "might" be wrong.

Incidentally, you brought up Judgment. Is there a doc about Judgment that I might educate myself about. That was an excelent point. If the Lord shows us our mistakes, and that which we didn't know, then upon entrance into Purgatory we would be purged of the stains of sin which keep us from understanding. Then we could enter Heaven 1) Pure, and 2) with a FULL knowledge of the Truth.

I hadn't thought about the Judgment (there are two, Particular and *the word escapes me at the moment*). One of them occurs at our death. And one occurs at our resurrection. So, thanks Anna for your post!

It just didn't make sense to me that one would die, be purified, yet not be given any sort of knowlede of the Truth before getting into heaven (where we know they know the Truth!). That's why I lumped it into purgatory. But you cleared that up.

[Anna]

Jake,

Regarding Judgement, in the CCC, paragraphs 1040, 1045, and 1054 are of particular interest.

Looking under Part I, The Profession of Faith, article III gives several paragraphs on Purgatory, and article V is all about the Last Judgement.

Hope this helps.

Pax Christi. <><

[Anna]

The stain of sin keeps us from understanding?

Ya think?

[hyperdulia again]

"I'm not sure whether the soul is infused with Divine knowledge before or after the stains of sin have been purged...Perhaps this knowledge is a gift earned once one enters heaven, or perhaps it is infused as the stain of sin diminishes...who knows? I think it's all speculation. If the Church made a declaration on this subject, I'd submit to it, but I'm not aware that She has."

I was under the assumption that Divine Knowledge must be present before one can enter Heaven.  Take for instance the knowledge of intercession of the Saints.  If I've died as a protestant in denial of intercession of the Saints, yet enter into heaven and start to intercede, I must have picked up the knowledge somewhere.  And since there is no other "state" other then earth, Purgatory, Heaven, then it must occure in Purgatory.  I thought that that was a simple deduction.

I understand that the Church doesn't "teach" specifically that knowledge is gained in Purgatory.  However, the Church also doesn't specifically "teach" whether or not evolution is true.  But, as you know, we are free to either accept or reject evolution. 

I guess my frustration up to this point (lets hope not beyond) is that Likos is implying that I am *wrong*.  I'm not trying to say that I'm *right*.  We won't know who's right till we get there, I suppose.  But if you look throught the Catechism and ALL the Church docs. you won't find anything REFUTING what I've said.  You may not find anything at all, but you wont find anything in contradiction.  And the fact of the matter is there are more people than just me that believe this (Dominic Berardino for one), and they are really orthodox!

Likos and you are simply taking the stance that "if it's not in the book, then I won't believe it".  There's nothing wrong with that at all.  I on the other hand am taking the stance that "if it's not in the book, then I am free to deduce certain things as long as they are not in contradiciton", which is also okay.  Just like in many cases, including but not limited to evolution.  I don't like being told I'm wrong - or made to feel as though I'm doing something contrary to my Holy Mother Church - when there is only evidence to support the claim that I "might" be wrong. 

Incidentally, you brought up Judgment.  Is there a doc about Judgment that I might educate myself about.  That was an excelent point.  If the Lord shows us our mistakes, and that which we didn't know, then upon entrance into Purgatory we would be purged of the stains of sin which keep us from understanding.  Then we could enter Heaven 1) Pure, and 2) with a FULL knowledge of the Truth.

I hadn't thought about the Judgment (there are two, Particular and *the word escapes me at the moment*).  One of them occurs at our death.  And one occurs at our resurrection.  So, thanks Anna for your post!

It just didn't make sense to me that one would die, be purified, yet not be given any sort of knowlede of the Truth before getting into heaven (where we know they know the Truth!).  That's why I lumped it into purgatory.  But you cleared that up.

Cool beans!

I wasn't trying to say that you were wrong, at first I just wanted to make it clear that what you were saying was not Church teaching (I'm not saying it conflicted with Church teaching.), but then after a while I turned into my bull-headed, intractable little self and tried to bludgeonn you with my view point.

[Katholikos]

Tim.

You actually do not know where we got the name for our group. actually, you haven't asked me at all. so, i forgot, how can you make a judgement on our name and derive the where we got it when you haven't even asked us? man, i didn't know i was a clavanist...thanks for clearing that up.

sorry to be so sarcastic, but i can't stand when people make judjements on me without asking me.

dude, i have so much love for you. i truly accept you as a brother in Christ, but please do not make conclusions about my faith without asking me.

I am not a Calvanist. AT ALL. none of us are. and Merlin, the Catholic, came up with the name, if you would like to know where we got the name. I got an idea; ask me. or ask merlin. or even sean p. just dont make conclusions on us.

sorry for the rebuke man, but I do so in love. please treat me with the kind of respect that you expect. Love you bro.

All I did was answer your question. I wrote: "Your group SOUNDS highly Calvanistic, judging from its name (based on 5-point Calvinism). I'd worry about it." (emphasis added)

You're still young. There's plenty of time. Please take a course in analytical reading (known as Logic).

It SOUNDS like a locomotive is not the same as it IS a locomotive.

How you can take that as my concluding that you are Calvinist? I merely said that judging from the name , it SOUNDS Calvinistic, and I would be concerned about it. I was answering your question about whether I (as a contributor at phatmass) thought Catholic and Protestants should play together in the same band. I answered, 'it depends on the lyrics,' followed by my comment about your band's name. I was giving you an honest answer, not sarcasm. That was your cue to explain the name -- that's all -- simply explain it. It was not provocation to accuse me of judging you. I didn't. I don't deserve your "rebuke" (your term).

Perhaps you didn't know about 5-point Calvinism, but now that you know don't be surprised if other people question your band's name also. But don't be surprised if they don't, either.

Peace be with you, JMJ Jay (Likos)

[Katholikos]

How about this: "Who ever is not against us is for us, and who ever is not for us is against us".

or how about this: "With God all things are possible". I mean, I believe people can be saved through Catholicism, and at this point, I believe Catholicism is a "perversion" of the truth.

You wrote: "Catholicism is a perversion of the truth." Would you explain that please?

What does the Church teach that is 'perverted' truth?

What is the unperverted truth? Where will we find it?

How did the Church come to teach this 'perversion' of the truth?

How long has the Church been teaching this perverted truth?

Did the Church EVER teach the unperverted truth? If so, when?

QUOTE - Acts 9:1-5

Now Saul, still breathing murderous threats against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, that if he should find and men or women who belonged to the Way, he might bring them back to Jerusalem in chains. On his journey, as he was nearing Damascus, a light from the sky suddenly flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting ME?" He said, "Who are you, sir? The reply came, "I AM JESUS, WHOM YOU ARE PERSECUTING."

Saul was persecuting the CHURCH (see also 1 Cor 15:9). And Jesus said the Church was HIMSELF.

Was the Catholic Church ever the Bride of Christ? The Body of Christ? The New Israel? The House of Jacob? The pillar and foundation of the truth? The Church through which the manifold wisdom of God was made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places? All the things the Bible teaches about the Church? If not, what was, in your opinion? If your answer is yes, when and why did she stop being these things?

Since Sola Scriptura rules Protestant belief, where in the Bible does it say this?

Thank you,

JMJ Jay (Likos)

[Guest godsgirl177]

protestant asks catholic a question........

protestant wants to be catholic..............

but then there cant be protestant and catholic together

so why the question?

[Katholikos]

protestant asks catholic a question........

protestant wants to be catholic..............

but then there cant be protestant and catholic together

so why the question?

I'm mystified by your post. Why can't there be Catholic and Protestant together? What do you mean?

JMJ Jay (Likos)

[ironmonk]

protestant asks catholic a question........

protestant wants to be catholic..............

but then there cant be protestant and catholic together

so why the question?

Protestanism is a journey to the complete truth of the Catholic Church. Protestantism is not a destination, Catholicism is a destination... It is the Church of the Living God, Pillar and Foundation of Truth. 1 Tim 3:15.

This is a good thing.

2 Catholics & 1 Protestant, they are together... Protestant becomes Catholic, now there are 3 Catholics, that wait for more Protestants on their journey to the Truth of the Church. Then there will be 3 Catholics and 1 Protestant, and it continues....

God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary

ironmonk

[hyperdulia again]

blue flower. tortoise eat dirt. bird fly.