Questions For The Cathlics...

[flip]

to everyone else:

thanks for all the posts. it seems wierd: i was talking to inDEED last night and I was telling him this. Everytime I'm talking with my protestant feinds, I'm usually defending the Catholic faith, and when I am here, I feel like I have to defend my protestant faith.

most of your posts wrere inciteful, but some of them felt a little bashing. But oh well, that's the way it goes i guess... I have a respect for all of yall's faith and i lve each and every one of you.

I pray that we can all have open minds and be able to debate our faiths with the love of Christ. I also pray taht Christ is smiling down on us as we discuss Him.

ps - about my dad. i shouldn't have posted that. i have a deep emotional attachment to him, and you guys just don't know him personally, so you cant really make judgements on the situation. thanks for trying, though. My dad really has no idea about Christ. honestly...

[Joyful]

Flip,

I certainly hope you didn't take offense to anything I said. So often I think of people mentioned on here (your dad) as hypothetical and forget that they're real to you. So if anything I said was rude, I truly apologize. I have great respect for your willingness to post on the site and I hope you continue to do so!

God Bless!

Joyful

[Anna]

so that they can be empowered by the book that Martin Luther wrote.

Anna, you know better- Martin Luther did not write his version of the Bible. He simply declared what he thought were the canonical books based on his knowledge and history. He didn't get his way either- books he wanted to cut are still in the non-Catholic Bible.

And Adam, you know that a mere man (named Martin Luther) with no legitimate authority, tampered with the Sacred Scriptures, deleted books, inserted editorial words which effectively changed the meaning of the message, and a good majority of those alterations still exist in the protestants' KJV today, while the Catholic Bible remains the same as it was when first compiled in the 4th century.

But, let's not have this discussion on this thread...If you wish to discuss Martin Luther and the KJV, I've bumped this thread for us to continue such a discussion.

Pax Christi. <><

[Kiddkapps]

to everyone else:

    thanks for all the posts. it seems wierd: i was talking to inDEED last night and I was telling him this. Everytime I'm talking with my protestant feinds, I'm usually defending the Catholic faith, and when I am here, I feel like I have to defend my protestant faith.

    most of your posts wrere inciteful, but some of them felt a little bashing. But oh well, that's the way it goes i guess... I have a respect for all of yall's faith and i lve each and every one of you.

  I pray that we can all have open minds and be able to debate our faiths with the love of Christ. I also pray taht Christ is smiling down on us as we discuss Him.

ps - about my dad. i shouldn't have posted that. i have a deep emotional attachment to him, and you guys just don't know him personally, so you cant really make judgements on the situation. thanks for trying, though. My dad really has no idea about Christ. honestly...

Wassup Bro,

Apologies if I made you feel under attack at all. Being in the HHH movement I deal with that all the time...and it's one of the things I want to get rid of which is part of the reason I stay in the movement regardless of how often I get "attacked." So I feel you on that.

Your questions are legitimate, your concerns are well-founded. And you're right I don't know your dad. My point was that just because someone was raised that way doesn't mean that there's no Truth in the beliefs. The Truth lies in the belief itself not in how that person came to know it.

But I'll leave it at that as you stated before it's a personal thing for you.

I pray that we all including myself continue to edify one another rather than attack.

Blessings,

Kidd

[hyperdulia again]

"I agree with you! Woooowhoooooo. I never said it WAS Catechisis/RCIA. Likos might have confused you into thinking so. Re-read my post carefully please. I said Purgatory is LIKE a Catechism class IN ADDITION to the removal of sin. Show me how this denies Church doctrine. On the contrary it supports it."

I'm trying to leave this alone, because it's petty and I don't want you to think I'm picking on you, but there isn't one shred of evidence from Scripture or from Sacred Tradition to support the idea that the Holy Souls in Purgatory are learning about the Catholic Faith. We don't know when after death full knowledge comes. The Church has never made a statement on it and I don't think She will. Even the damned know that the Saints interced for us and that Mary is Queen of Heaven. Even the damned know that the Pope is the head of Christ's Church on Earth.

There is no reason to suppose that Purgatory is even like Catechesis or RCIA.

And no Likos didn't confuse me. I thought I must have been misunderstanding what I read at first, but then you went on to make it very clear what exactly you were saying.

:wub:

-------

edited because the devil made me write Poope instead of Pope. :wub:

Edited July 17, 2003 by hyperdulia again

[jasJis]

I haven't read all the posts thoroughly, but it seems it's almost an arguement of semantics.

Are we not purged of the effects of sin in Purgatory? Wouldn't one of the effects of sin be ignorance of God. Isn't cathechesis coming to know God? It's clumsy wording to call it a catechism class, but I would think enlightenment occurs in purgatory while we are purged of our ignorance due to apathy, pride, etc.

[Anna]

Edited July 17, 2003 by Anna

[jasJis]

Anna,

Why'd you delete it? I read it and then went to the Catechism and changed my mind from my previous post. I don't think were enlightened in Purgatory, we just lose the qualities that kept us dumb and made us unable to learn or to be filled with enlightenment.

You changed my mind.

[Jake Huether]

Thanks JasJis, you're absolutely right.

Hyper, you wrote:

"there isn't one shred of evidence from Scripture or from Sacred Tradition to support the idea that the Holy Souls in Purgatory are learning about the Catholic Faith. We don't know when after death full knowledge comes."

The little "shred" of evidence is that those in heaven are Saints, Perfect, Pure. Perfection doesn't come from simply removing the bad. It comes from filling in all the voids. I gave plenty of examples. If I died, I'd still need to learn more about God before I made it into heaven. One things for sure, in Purgatory, a lot of Protestants will LEARN about Gods Grace through the Purification of Purgatory. They will learn that we are all praying for them (because they recieve the benefits of our prayers!). They do indeed learn! Whether or not it's an RCIA/Catechism type learning or otherwise (maybe it was clumsy wording). It's a growth process.

There is a diffence between the acquasition of the Truth by a damned person then by someone who is saved. The difference is this: The damned are damned. They can get into hell, easy ticket, without knowing the Truth, and then find the Truth out there. On the other hand, one can NOT get into heaven without FIRST being PERFECT. That is: PERFECT IN THE FAITH. So, that necesitates some growth in spirit (learning) between dying on earth and getting into Heaven. Or are you trying to hint that there is a 4th state (not hell, heaven or purgatory) where people learn. So they would die, then learn, then be purified, then go to heaven. Or they would die, be purified, then learn, then go to heaven. I know that isn't in the Catechism. I would suggest that learning and being purified are part of the same state.

[Jonle]

I don't think that's what he was saying at all. I think he was seeking clarification on what you yourself called your "clumsy wording".

[hyperdulia again]

I'm sorry Jake, but I don't think that necessarily means that knowledge comes in/during Purgatory and I know the Church doesn't teach that.

[Jake Huether]

"I know the Church doesn't teach that."

So where then does the Church teach that our knowledge AFTER death comes from?

I'm not saying it's NOT true, but is there learning in heaven?

I was contemplating that a bit... Could we be completely purified in Purgatory, yet still grow MORE in knowledge after we're in heaven? Or will we know everything that we need to know to be Perfect before we enter heaven?

I think the issue here includes, but is not limited to:

Some people being Document hounds. If the Church didn't write it, then it isn't so...

That's the same excuse the Protestants use to defend Bible alone, etc. If it ain't in the Bible then it is NOT true.

The Church may not specifically state what goes on in Purgatory or Heaven, but that doesn't mean it isn't true. It doesn't even mean the Church doesn't believe that.

It is simply deducable that if someone dies unkowledgable and enters heaven knowledgable, then they must have acquired knowledge somewhere in between. And if the only inbetween is Purgatory, then it must be Purgatory. Unless there is learning in heaven.

Someone please explain this to me:

Where are we perfected in knowledge, Purgatory or Heaven?

The Church teaches that we are Purified in Purgatory - I know. But then where would a protestant (or non-Christian for that matter) learn about Papal Authority, Eucharist, Sacraments, Mary being Queen.

Lets not beat around the bush with drawn out answers. Its either one of two places, Heaven or Purgatory. Obviously were talking about someone who died in an ignorant state - so they didn't get the knowlege on earth.

[hyperdulia again]

Hon' it doesn't have to be either. I think Anna's post said something about it potentially happening during the particular judgement, and I'm inclined to believe that.

But, it doesn't matter we aren't going to know the right or wrong answer to this until we die or until the Church issues some statement on it.

And I'm not saying that some kind of learning might not go on in Purgatory. I'm saying the Catholic Church is silent on the matter.

This is me nit-picking:

"Some people being Document hounds. If the Church didn't write it, then it isn't so...

That's the same excuse the Protestants use to defend Bible alone, etc. If it ain't in the Bible then it is NOT true."

If it isn't contained explicitly or implicitly in Sacred Tradition/Scripture, or the Doctrines of the Catholic Church, then I am inclined to believe its not true.

Edited July 17, 2003 by hyperdulia again

[mulls]

Dearest Sean,

If all you are willing to offer people is a half-Truth, then why bother?

You complain about your own Catholic relatives' lukewarmness, which is their lack of zeal for the Fullness of Truth found only in the Catholic Faith.

Yet, you profess great zeal for protestant beliefs, which lacks the Fullness of Truth.

Which is worse? Indifference with the Truth, or Zeal for Partial Truth?

These are the choices you have given me.

The best choice is to point them to the Fullness of Truth, the Church founded by Jesus Christ Himself, the Church about which He prayed to the Father, that we would all "remain one." If you choose to deny that for yourself, I am sad. But if you want to draw others to tag along with you in error, that is devastating.

Pax Christi. <><

I have rejected Catholocism since the first day i've been here, and everyone knows that. Therefore, I would never lead someone I love to a religion that I don't believe is true. Whether I am right or wrong about this is insignificant as of right now.

Simply because I don't believe what you believe, you are saying that I should NOT spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ, found in his Word, to others, so that they may experience the peace and joy of God's glorious plan for human salvation.

I just want to make sure I'm clear on this....you, a mortal human being, is telling me not to attempt to open people's eyes to Christ, but rather allow them to live in sin, because it's either Catholocism or nothing. This is the most terrible thing I have ever heard...I am honestly almost reduced to tears.

[dUSt]

Why does one think that we must be perfect in knowledge in heaven?