Questions For The Cathlics...

[Jake Huether]

Ditto to that. Anna, you actually made me rethink things a bit. You brought up a good point that should be touched on.

I agree with you that an individual inside a protestant church is wasting his/her time. It's good that they know Christ. But they must make steps towards progression in Chrsit. that is not possible in a protestant church because part of what they learn hinders them from knowing Christ FULLY and Truly. However, I do not think that protestant churches are wasting their time (and I think that was the question?). Protestant Churches are a HUGE force in bringing poeple to Christ. This is a very good thing. Yes it is sad that they who are bringing so many to Christ cannot themselves give those people the fullness of the truth about Christ. But it is a step in the right direction.

[dUSt]

Protestant Churches are a HUGE force in bringing poeple to Christ.  This is a very good thing.

This may be shocking to some, but it is my contention that Protestantism, as a whole, leads more people away from Christ than to Christ.

I'd like to see some statistics on who many people born Catholic end up being Protestant compared to the number of Jews, Muslims and Athiests who end up being Protestant.

[Anna]

A dear relative who lives in a distant state has left the Church to become an evangelical protestant.

This individual spends a great deal of time in prayer and Bible study, but the Bible interpretation is full of error.

She does her damnest to convert Catholics, especially, using twisted Scriptures.

It's very sad. She works her fingers to the bone to get people to reject the Church which Christ built, so that they can be empowered by the book that Martin Luther wrote.

I can't help but think that there are soooo many people wasting an hour a week, happily listening to error, when they could be in the physical Presence of Jesus Christ.

In other (shorter) words, they'd be much closer to Christ if they came to Mass.

Pax Christi. <><

[Jake Huether]

My Wife's cousin also left the Church for an evangelical sect (they're not even that Christian - they don't believe in the Trinity)

However, I'm happy as of now becasue at least he WANTS to learn about God. He wasn't very firm in his Catholic faith (obviously). So hopefully the more he learns about Christ, the more he will learn about the Church.

Yes, it is true that many Catholics leave the Church to go on to protestantism. But at least there they have a flame under their butts.

Catholics leave the church when and only when they don't understand the Church, or when they haven't heard of Catholicism and just want to know Jesus!. Protestants become Catholics when and only when they begin to understand the Church. I would rather a "bad" Catholic become a "good" protestant than remain the same. Of course above all I'd wish they would remain and become a "good" Catholic.

You're right dUSt. But we should also consider that if it wasn't for the constant chanllenges of the protestants we might not know so well about Christ's True Presence in the Eucharist. We might not have such a strong Mariology (sp). We might not have studied so hard to learn more about Purgatory.

Though protestantism was a stake in the heart of the Body of Christ, causing a huge explosion of mass confussion among "believers", I am a firm believer of "no pain no gain". I think they have caused the existance of some of the best and brightest theologians EVER.

[Katholikos]

Likos,

The source for that specific piece of info can be found on a tape by Dominic Berardino entitled "Spiritual Warfare".  Dominic, in case you didn't know, has an amesome testamony.  He is the president of the SCRC, and a great speaker.  I don't think he has much on the web, but you should order his tapes.

As far as the Catechism goes, I said nothing in contradiction.

Purification - that is all that is said specifically about purgatory (from which it's name is derived).

Isn't it a purification to be taken from, say, a lie to a truth?  Purification isn't necessarily a removal of something, period. Purification is also the addition of something.

So, say an atheist who upon his deathbed turned his life over to God, yet didn't know an iota of Jesus, Mary, the Saints, the Sacraments, etc.  If he were to be purified, simply by removing his bad spotts (the stains of his sin), he still would enter heaven then not knowing anything!

His purification would have to include the gain of knowledge about God.

Therefore, one who is raised to believe that communication with the Saints in Heaven is forbidden, yet still is not damned to hell, uppon enterance into heaven will know the Truth.

One who is raised in ignorance of the Trinity, upon entrance into heaven MUST know the Truth of the trinity.

And likewise anyone who dies in disbelief of the True Presense of Christ in the Eucharist, yet hasn't committed a sin warenting damnation, must first learn the Truth of Christs Body and Blood in the Eucharist before he/she can enter Christs Gates!

There is NO ONE in heaven who does not know the FULLNESS of Truth about God, and anyone who knows the FULLNESS of TRUTH is CATHOLIC by virtue of that knowledge!  Therefore, there is no one INSIDE heaven that is NOT Catholic.  They are a part of what makes up the BODY of CHRIST, the same BODY OF CHRIST that we here on earth belong to.

What is SCRC? Regardless of who he is, Dominic is required to teach what the Church teaches since he represents himself as speaking for the Church in matters of doctrine. I want to know his source -- the official teaching of the Catholic Church --for this statement. If the Church doesn't teach it, it's Protestant -- that is, Dominic is making it up himself. He's claiming an unapproved private revelation, perhaps? But it should not be repeated unless validated.

Show me where any encyclical or statement by a Pope, any Vatican body, any official document of the CC, says anything about Purgatory being a learning experience for Protestants, to teach them Catholic doctrine.

A statement such as "everyone has to be Catholic before they can get to heaven; they learn what they're lacking in Purgatory," that cannnot be verified in the Church's official documents, is dangerous. We should be concerned to present the Church's teachings accurately. No personal inventions (yours, mine, Dominic's, or anyone else's) allowed.

No, Jake, Purgatory is not adding. The teaching is very specific:

QUOTE

What is Purgatory? Purgatory is a place or state where souls suffer for a time after death on account of their sins.

What souls go to Purgatory? Those souls go to Purgatory that depart this life in venial sin; or that have not fully paid the debt of temporal punishment due to those sins of which the guilt has been forgiven.

What is temporal punishment? Temporal punishment is punishment for a spiritual debt that is yet unsatisfied, but which will have an end, either in this world or in the world to come.

And it continues . . . P. 395, This is the Faith, A Complete Explanation of the Catholic Faith , by Canon Francis Ripley. Originally published in England in 1951, reprinted in the U.S. by TAN Books, 2002.

Give me an OFFICIAL source for the teachings you have presented, please. Or give me Dominic's address and the exact quote and title of the tape and I'll ask him for his source.

And where does the Church teach that some of us get educated after we die?

Where does this education take place? Purgatory? Who is the instructor?

No offense, Jake, but if the Church teaches it, so should we. If she doesn't, we should not present it as Church doctrine. I just want to know the official source for these statements -- I have never before heard of them or read them, and they set off my alarm.

JMJ Jay (Likos)

[Brother Adam]

so that they can be empowered by the book that Martin Luther wrote.

Anna, you know better- Martin Luther did not write his version of the Bible. He simply declared what he thought were the canonical books based on his knowledge and history. He didn't get his way either- books he wanted to cut are still in the non-Catholic Bible.

[hyperdulia again]

THat Bro. Adam should tell you something about Luther's other ideas.

-----------

Purgatory isn't Catechesis/RCIA. It is a place/process for the handing out of the temporal punishments for sin and for the removing of venial sins.

-----------

We can/should hope think and pray that Protestants go to Heaven, but salvation lies in one institution and I don't EVER recall reading in any official document that it's better to be a "good" protestant than a bad Catholic---in fact if bad Catholic means denying Catholic teaching then that bad Catholic is a good Protestant.

There's something screwy about a religious system that draws its definition from what it isn't rather than what it is; from what it doesn't beieve rather than what it believes.

Just because a Catholic writes something, doesn't mean that it's Church teaching, I'll demonstrate: In the end Jesus will only save those who brush their teeth after every meal.

Edited July 17, 2003 by hyperdulia again

[Kiddkapps]

hmmm.

[mulls]

I only disagree on one point with you and Jake. I'm afraid I do feel that people are wasting their time in a Protestant Church.

Anna,

in this case, do you believe that I should not witness to non-Christians?

Should I not encourage them to have a living relationship with Jesus Christ, who can forgive them of all their sins?

Should I not encourage them to read a bible on their own, to show them what God wants to do in their life?

Should I leave these poor people alone, rather than bring them to church and waste their time on Sunday mornings?

Obviously, you want everyone to discover the fullnes of truth and all that good stuff in the Catholic church (which is admirable...you simply want the best for everybody) But since I will not recommend that they become Catholic, am I better off letting them be, and pray that God somehow takes care of them? What is a protestant to do?

[hyperdulia again]

convert

[Kiddkapps]

mmmmm interesting....

also, a more personal question...

my dad has been Catholic all his life. He says he believes everything in the Catholic church.

He also says that he has no idea why he believes everything in the Catholic church. He says that since he was raised Catholic, that is the only reason why he is Catholic. he also says he is a Christian, but he has never read the bible.

I brought up the fact, that if someone wrote you a personal letter, you should read it gain more insight into that person. If you just believe what people tell you, then you are getting a secondary source of information, and the primary source is much better, to expierence Christ, learn about him, and learn the history of his followers.

What do yall think? Is my dad in the wrong? Am I in the wrong? Can one go his whole life and be a Christian but never read the bible on a personal level?

Hmmm..well allow me to put it this way. Truth is Truth is Truth is Truth. If you were raised your whole life being taught that brushing your teeth is good for you. It doesn't matter that you don't do the research into it to ensure that yes indeedy that colgate is darn good for you. The fact of the matter is that brushing your teeth will be good for you regardless if you learned it from mommy and daddy or if you were keen and researched the effects of sodium floride on tooth decay. Your Father being raised Catholic doesn't negate the Truth behind it.

As for this notion of a love letter? Christ is for all persons not just the intellectuals. Christ extends to the masses whether poor or what....especially to the poor. May I ask in return...can an illiterate partake in the fullness of being a Christian? I highly doubt that there will be a written entrance exam at the Gates of Heaven. I also doubt that the ALL-Powerful Jahovah would be confined just to Scripture...If we truly believe that CHRIST is alive today then we should be able to recognize that He is present and as Catholics will tell you...HE is present in the Church. Think about why you read? You read because you can't interact with that person personally for whatever reason, distance, time, etc. I love philosophy...I read and read philosophy books like a mad woman...I read about what dead people wrote...but believe you me if I could I would talk to Plato and Socrates face-to-face. Jesus is alive and risen....why would I just dwell on written scripture (HIS love letter) when HE has provided me a living, tangible, powerful sign of HIS love through the Catholic Church through the Sacraments? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you shouldn't read the Bible or that the Bible is useless...but the Catholic Church is the Bilbe in action...it is Biblically based with the benefit of the Teachings of Christ passed down through the generations unaltered.

[Kiddkapps]

WOOO HOOOO I made three pages!!!!

[Jake Huether]

Dominic Berardino is President of Southern California Renewal Communities, based in the Los Angeles Archdiocese. He holds a Master's Degree in Religious Studies from Mt. St. Mary's College and has pursued further studios at LoyolaMarymount University.

Tune in every Friday Morning 9-10am for a spiritual uplift with SCRC President Dominic Berardino on AM Station 1670!

http://www.scrc.org/tapes_catalog.htm

“Show me where any encyclical or statement by a Pope, any Vatican body, any official document of the CC, says anything about Purgatory being a learning experience for Protestants, to teach them Catholic doctrine.”

I just showed you be reasonable deduction that a Protestant who dies MUST become aware of the Truth before he/she enters heaven. Tell me then, Likos, (or anyone for that matter), how one who dies denying the doctrine of intersession of the Saints, can make it into heaven where there IS intersession of the Saints. Tell me how a protestant who dies denying the queenship of the Virgin Mary, will continue to do so while in Heaven under her queenship.

Likos, I think that this is all confused simply by verbiage. You say yes a Protestant (on earth) who dies, CAN go to heaven. I have noooo problem with that. All I’m saying is that if you poke your head up into heaven, I can guarantee you won’t find any Protestants. I said it before, I’ll say it again, EVERYONE that is in heaven MUST be Catholic. The are the Church Triumphant (which is in the CC). They continually intercede for us (also in the CC). They acknowledge the queenship of Mary (also in the CC). The know all about Christ’s true presence in the Eucharist (CC). So, I agree, one who dies as a protestant can indeed make it to heaven. But once they are in heaven they MUST believe what Catholics believe.

Like I said in my previous post, if a person dies not knowing anything about Christ, the Saints, the Eucharist, Mary – in fact say he was an atheist all his life, but at the very last breath he gives his life to God, to Jesus Christ who he’s only hear of in name. So, then, lets assume he is saved. You’re telling me that when he gets into heaven he will not know a thing about Mary, or how to intercede? During his time in purgatory, your saying that he will have only been “purified” of the stain of sin, yet will not have learned anything about the faith? Just logically speaking, if he died with no knowledge, but came into heaven knowing everything, then where did he acquire this knowledge? It must have been in Purgatory. Or then you’re implying that there is also a learning stage while in heaven.

“A statement such as "everyone has to be Catholic before they can get to heaven; they learn what they're lacking in Purgatory," that cannnot be verified in the Church's official documents, is dangerous.”

It can be deduced from Church documents and Church teachings. Again, from what you’re saying, then there are people in heaven who are protestant (that is they never ceased to be protestant). By this, you are saying that there are people in heaven not interceding for us (which is against the CC). You are saying that some people in heaven don’t believe in Christ in the Eucharist (against the CC). There are some in Heaven who deny Mary’s role as Mother of the Church (against the CC).

What I’m saying is that YES protestants can make it into heaven. However, once they are in heaven the MUST cease to be protestant, that is, the HAVE to be Catholic. And how do they gain this knowledge if they’ve died as a protestant? 1) Purgatory, or 2) a learning phase in heaven – which incidentally isn’t in the CC either. I believe that Purgation, purification, INCLUDES purifying your mind to understand the Churches teachings, that is God’s teachings.

“We should be concerned to present the Church's teachings accurately. No personal inventions (yours, mine, Dominic's, or anyone else's) allowed.”

Absolutely! This is not my own “invention”. I’m merely taking what the Church HAS said and deducing a truth from it.

Again, tell me how there are people in heaven who can deny the BODY of CHRIST, the Catholic Church? Are there people in heaven who deny even one tiny teaching of the Church? There can't be! The Bride of Christ, the Church (the Church Triumphant in particular), is stainless and Perfect! The Church, Christs Body, cannot deny Christs teachings! A person that dies with a lack of understanding HAS to be given that understanding either in Purgatory or in Heaven. How else could a person who died with a lack of understanding all of a suden understand once in heaven?

“Purgatory isn't Catechesis/RCIA. It is a place/process for the handing out of the temporal punishments for sin and for the removing of venial sins.”

I agree with you! Woooowhoooooo. I never said it WAS Catechisis/RCIA. Likos might have confused you into thinking so. Re-read my post carefully please. I said Purgatory is LIKE a Catechism class IN ADDITION to the removal of sin. Show me how this denies Church doctrine. On the contrary it supports it. Like I had mentioned: How else could one who died denying Saintly Intercession (or not UNDERSTANDING it) come to a full knowledge of it once in heaven? The CC specifically states that the Church Triumphant, all those in HEAVEN constantly intercede for us on earth. How would that be possible if they didn’t learn how?

Please don't treat me like I'm ignorant of what Purgatory is. I know what the Catechism says. I know what the Bible says. I've heard numorous tapes and talks on this. I believe that we actually agree, but, as someone stated earlier, your ears are tuned simply to jump on err. Please try to understand what I'm saying. I'm not denying that Protestants can make it into heaven, but if they refuse to accet the Catholic Church at the Gates of Heaven - sorry - they aint getting in. Unless you can prove to me (using Church docs of course) that there are Church Triumphant who don't intercede, believe in Mary's Motherhood, etc.

[flip]

Is your question, "is there anything wrong with Catholics making music with Protestants"?  Depends on the lyrics.  Your group sounds highly Calvanistic, judging from its name (based on 5-point Calvinism).  I'd worry about it.

Tim.

You actually do not know where we got the name for our group. actually, you haven't asked me at all. so, i forgot, how can you make a judgement on our name and derive the where we got it when you haven't even asked us? man, i didn't know i was a clavanist...thanks for clearing that up.

sorry to be so sarcastic, but i can't stand when people make judjements on me without asking me.

dude, i have so much love for you. i truly accept you as a brother in Christ, but please do not make conclusions about my faith without asking me.

I am not a Calvanist. AT ALL. none of us are. and Merlin, the Catholic, came up with the name, if you would like to know where we got the name. I got an idea; ask me. or ask merlin. or even sean p. just dont make conclusions on us.

sorry for the rebuke man, but I do so in love. please treat me with the kind of respect that you expect. Love you bro.

[Anna]

Anna,

...Obviously, you want everyone to discover the fullnes of truth and all that good stuff in the Catholic church (which is admirable...you simply want the best for everybody) But since I will not recommend that they become Catholic, am I better off letting them be, and pray that God somehow takes care of them? What is a protestant to do?

Dearest Sean,

If all you are willing to offer people is a half-Truth, then why bother?

You complain about your own Catholic relatives' lukewarmness, which is their lack of zeal for the Fullness of Truth found only in the Catholic Faith.

Yet, you profess great zeal for protestant beliefs, which lacks the Fullness of Truth.

Which is worse? Indifference with the Truth, or Zeal for Partial Truth?

These are the choices you have given me.

The best choice is to point them to the Fullness of Truth, the Church founded by Jesus Christ Himself, the Church about which He prayed to the Father, that we would all "remain one." If you choose to deny that for yourself, I am sad. But if you want to draw others to tag along with you in error, that is devastating.

Pax Christi. <><