Questions For The Cathlics...

[jasJis]

The way I look at it, I can only help you understand.

W

hen it comes to believing it, that depends on Grace, and that's God's job! There's always Hope!! LOL!

[Katholikos]

No and Yes. There is a question though of whether or not that particular individual thinks they're Cathlic or not. You may be protestant by name, and you may love God with all your heart as a protestant may, but by the time you make it to the pearly Gates, you'll be Catholic.  Why do I say this? Because the Catholic Church teaches the Truth, and in order to get into heaven you must know the Truth. That isn't to say that if you die not knowing the Truth, you will go to hell. No. However, that is why we believe in purgatory. Not only are you cleansed of the stain of sin (not sin - Jesus took that away. the STAIN of sin, like the addiction to it kind of), but you are also given a full knowledge of all the Truthes. You are basically put into a Catechism Class before you enter Heaven so that when you see God in all the Truth, you won't be automatically blown away! So if you die protestant and end up in Heaven, you will have undergone a full conversion.

Jake, please state your source for this.

JMJ Jay (Likos)

[Jake Huether]

Joyful,

You have made my day! I had never really thought about the Bible in that sort of angle. It is a tradition isn't it? LOL So true!

Flip, If you want personal, you should try consuming Jesus Christ, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Holy Eucharist. When Jesus said we can be in Him and HIM IN US he wasn't talking just on a figurative level. Christ was talking truly physically and spiritually with in us. He left us His Holy Body and Blood!

Have you ever felt like you loved someone sooooooo much you wanted to hug them. But not just hug them; hug them sooooooooooo hard that you squeeze into that person!? You long to unite souls! That's the Eucharist, flip. I can hug Jesus so hard that him and I unite, physically!

The Bible is personal, to an extent. But if you start to not understand something, or worse to understand something DIFFERENTLY than how it was meant to be understood than not only can the written Word be impersonal, it can actually be distructive to your relationship with Christ.

[Joyful]

Thanks Jake! I always feel so dumb posting in the Debate area because everyone else knows so much! I don't know what got into me today, sudden burst of self-confidence! I promise I won't let it happen again!

Joyful

[Jake Huether]

Likos, I was trying (hard) to put our concept of Baptism of Desire / purgatory into more palitable terms.

If you like you can pick apart what I wrote. I thought it made sense, on a more simplistic level. Maybe I skewed some stuff in trying to take out the more complex notion of "no salvation outside the Church".

The sources for my info on Purgatory have been Various.

Scott Hahn, Dominic Berardino, the Catechism, the Bible, too many to name.

What did I say that you are concerned about? If I've unintentionally said something not in conformance with the Church, I will be more than happy to explain myself.

[jasJis]

Jake,

I think Likos was giving you a C, not an F.

[Katholikos]

Is there such a thing as evangelical Catholics? Is there anything wrong with this?

Define what you mean by "evangelical." If you mean the dictionary defintion #1, pertaining to or in keeping with the Gospels and their teachings, YES, there are evangelical Catholics. If you mean dictionary definition #2, emphasizing the scriptures in opposition to the institutional authority of the Church, NO!.

Christianaity is not Bible-based. Protestants, all of whom originated in the 16th century or later, have tried to make it seem so, but that is a fallacy.

What about clapping and singing charamatically in mass? (The dopest Catholic church is St. Bart's in Ft. Worth. Catholic. Charasmatic. Amazing.)

All Catholic Churches are "charismatic" [i.e., they all possess the charism of the Holy Spirit]. Some MASSES are designated "Charismatic" where the gifts of the Spirit are prominently featured. In such cases, there will usually be one "Charismatic" Mass among the other Masses offered at that Church. Some Churches do not have a "Charismatic" Mass, but they are all "charismatic."

is there anything wrong with contemporary worship songs in the Catholic church?

No, but you've never experienced Mass until you've heard it sung in Gregorian chant. It's the next best thing to being in heaven, listening to angelic choirs.

Is there anything wrong with half prot/ half Catholic hip hop groups such as Mars Ill or my crew, Point 5 Covenant?

Is your question, "is there anything wrong with Catholics making music with Protestants"? Depends on the lyrics. Your group sounds highly Calvanistic, judging from its name (based on 5-point Calvinism). I'd worry about it.

Do you think that the Catholic church is what it should be?

The Catholic Church was founded by Christ and is His Body. It has been thoughout history "what it should be," that is, "what Christ wanted it to be."

Are YOU, as a person, totally happy with the state of the church?

The Church is a hospital for sinners and a training ground for saints. Yes, how could I not be totally happy -- the Church cannot be other than what it is, the Body of Christ (Col 1:15-18), the Bride of Christ (Eph 5:25-33), the Israel of God (Gal 6:16), the House of Jacob (Lk 1:32-33), "the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth" through which "the manifold wisdom of God is made known. . ." (Eph 3:8-11).

Do yall think that there is salvation outside the Catholic church?

Yes. Catechism of the Catholic Church 847-848: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience -- those too may achieve eternal salvation. Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gosel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evanglize all men."

Does one have to be Catholic (and only Catholic) to enter the Kindom of God?

No. See the Catechism cited above. One can be Muslim, Buddhist, Protestant, whatever and still achieve eternal salvation IF ONE IS INVINCIBLY IGNORANT OF THE NECESSITY OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH FOR SALVATION, and meets the requirements as stated in the Catechism.

Do you think that there will be Catholics in hell?

Yes, indeedy.

Is there salvation in the protestant church, or will they enter the gates of hell?

Any salvation in a Protestant church is derivative -- Christ founded only one Church for the salvation of the world. Others may be saved with difficulty through grace derived from the Catholic Church. It's not easy to get to heaven, especially without Christ's gifts, the Sacraments.

are protestant churches truly wasting thier time?

They are all man-made. The Catholic Church alone is God-made, founded by Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. You be the judge.

Is it ok to be Catholic and not believe every fact of the Catholic church?

No. A Catholic, by definition, believes everything the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church teaches. If one does not, one ceases to be Catholic.

Has the Catholic church been totally spotless and without sin (as a whole) in all of it's history?

The Church, YES, she is the sinless Body of Christ; her human, fallible, sinful members, NO.

Has the church made mistakes? If the church has, why do you think they have made mistakes?

Again, the God-made Catholic Church cannot err. Her human, fallible, sinful members have made plenty of mistakes. Why? Because they're human.

JMJ Jay (Likos)

Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

[Jake Huether]

"QUOTE

Do yall think that there is salvation outside the Catholic church?

Yes. Catechism of the Catholic Church 847-848: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience -- those too may achieve eternal salvation. Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gosel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evanglize all men."

QUOTE

Does one have to be Catholic (and only Catholic) to enter the Kindom of God?

No. See the Catechism cited above. One can be Muslim, Buddhist, Protestant, whatever and still achieve eternal salvation IF ONE IS INVINCIBLY IGNORANT OF THE NECESSITY OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH FOR SALVATION, and meets the requirements as stated in the Catechism. "

Likos,

I think we are on the same page although we answered with the exact opposite response. LOL.

Whereas you said Yes, there is salvation outside the Church, I think I meant the same thing even though I said no. You see, technically speaking, yes, there is salvation outside the Church (as in budhists, Jews, etc. can all be saved). My "no" was for the fact that it is indeed through the Church that their salvation is available.

You said NO to the latter question, stating that any of the other religions can still achieve eternal salvation. However, my "yes" was due to the fact that the question was, "do you have to be Catholic to enter the Kingdome of God". Although one may die a Jew, Muslim, or Protestant, once they actually get INto heaven, that is, when they enter Heaven (not just eternity - but actually seeing God), they must indeed believe in the TRUTH, which is the Catholic faith.

As Catholics we believe that most people do NOT go directly to Heaven. Most Catholics don't, much less someone of a different faith. Reasons being 1) the stain of sin, and 2) not knowing ALL there is to know about the Truth. Therefore, you can enter eternal salvation (Purgatory is included in the salvific process) as a non-Catholic. However, you will only enter Heaven when you have achieved Catholic (that is "Universal") status.

[Katholikos]

Likos, I was trying (hard) to put our concept of Baptism of Desire / purgatory into more palitable terms. 

If you like you can pick apart what I wrote.  I thought it made sense, on a more simplistic level.  Maybe I skewed some stuff in trying to take out the more complex notion of "no salvation outside the Church".

The sources for my info on Purgatory have been Various.

Scott Hahn, Dominic Berardino, the Catechism, the Bible, too many to name.

What did I say that you are concerned about?  If I've unintentionally said something not in conformance with the Church, I will be more than happy to explain myself.

No and Yes. There is a question though of whether or not that particular individual thinks they're Cathlic or not. You may be protestant by name, and you may love God with all your heart as a protestant may, but by the time you make it to the pearly Gates, you'll be Catholic.  Why do I say this? Because the Catholic Church teaches the Truth, and in order to get into heaven you must know the Truth. That isn't to say that if you die not knowing the Truth, you will go to hell. No. However, that is why we believe in purgatory. Not only are you cleansed of the stain of sin (not sin - Jesus took that away. the STAIN of sin, like the addiction to it kind of), but you are also given a full knowledge of all the Truthes. You are basically put into a Catechism Class before you enter Heaven so that when you see God in all the Truth, you won't be automatically blown away! So if you die protestant and end up in Heaven, you will have undergone a full conversion.

Sorry, friend Jake, but this is not the teaching of the Church. Purgatory is not a catechism class. I know of no Catholic doctrine that could be stretched to cover what you have written. But if you will provide your source(s), I'll gladly consider them.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is readily available to all of us. It's written in simple language. Here's what it says on Purgatory:

CCC 1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

CCC 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire (Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7):

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

CCC 1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin" (2 Macc 12:46). From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt tht our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them (Cf Job 1:5).

END OF SECTION ON PURGATORY

Nary a word about teaching, learning, conversion, or anything other than purification of the soul in preparation for heaven.

Maybe your sources know something I don't know, but it's not even hinted at in the Catechism , in Ludwig Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, or Denzinger's Sources of Catholic Dogma.

[Jake Huether]

Likos,

The source for that specific piece of info can be found on a tape by Dominic Berardino entitled "Spiritual Warfare". Dominic, in case you didn't know, has an amesome testamony. He is the president of the SCRC, and a great speaker. I don't think he has much on the web, but you should order his tapes.

As far as the Catechism goes, I said nothing in contradiction.

Purification - that is all that is said specifically about purgatory (from which it's name is derived).

Isn't it a purification to be taken from, say, a lie to a truth? Purification isn't necessarily a removal of something, period. Purification is also the addition of something.

So, say an atheist who upon his deathbed turned his life over to God, yet didn't know an iota of Jesus, Mary, the Saints, the Sacraments, etc. If he were to be purified, simply by removing his bad spotts (the stains of his sin), he still would enter heaven then not knowing anything!

His purification would have to include the gain of knowledge about God.

Therefore, one who is raised to believe that communication with the Saints in Heaven is forbidden, yet still is not damned to hell, uppon enterance into heaven will know the Truth.

One who is raised in ignorance of the Trinity, upon entrance into heaven MUST know the Truth of the trinity.

And likewise anyone who dies in disbelief of the True Presense of Christ in the Eucharist, yet hasn't committed a sin warenting damnation, must first learn the Truth of Christs Body and Blood in the Eucharist before he/she can enter Christs Gates!

There is NO ONE in heaven who does not know the FULLNESS of Truth about God, and anyone who knows the FULLNESS of TRUTH is CATHOLIC by virtue of that knowledge! Therefore, there is no one INSIDE heaven that is NOT Catholic. They are a part of what makes up the BODY of CHRIST, the same BODY OF CHRIST that we here on earth belong to.

[Jake Huether]

You can tell me that a protestant died and went to Heaven, but you cannot tell me that there is a protestant in Heaven. Once they enter the Gates and are a part of the Body of Christ, the Church Triumfant, Saints in other words, they then are Catholics. There is no one in Heaven that does not believe in the Trinity. There is no one in Heaven that does not believe in the intercession of the Saints, or Mary's queenship over those on earth.

Maybe all there is to know about Purgatory isn't necessarily found under "Purgatory" in the Catechism. If we look up Heaven we find that, those in heaven are a part of the CHURCH. And when the Catechism referes to Church, I don't think it means a protestant church or a Synagogue.

By reasonable deduction we can see that since everyone in Heaven knows the Truth about God, the Truth about Christ, and the Truth about Christ's Church, (quite simply anyone in Heaven is a Saint), we know that no one enters heaven without this knowledge. Therefore, logically, since they didn't get the knowlege on earth, and they have it in heaven, then it must have been given to them somewhere inbetween, right?

All I'm saying is that I think we agree Likos. It's just a verbage issue.

[Jake Huether]

CCC865 The Church is ultimately one, holy, catholic, and apostolic in her deepest and ultimate identity, because it is in her that "the Kingdom of heaven," the "Reign of God," already exists and will be fulfilled at the end of time. The kingdom has come in the person of Christ and grows mysteriously in the hearts of those incorporated into him, until its full eschatological manifestation. Then all those he has redeemed and made "holy and blameless before him in love," will be gathered together as the one People of God, the "Bride of the Lamb," "the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God." For "the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."

[nippy316]

Mulls!

You did better than the majority of my first year confirmation students.  I'm impressed with what's God been working through us and you.

Two Chi Ro's up!

Watch it Mr.T!!! It was very smooth of you to slip 'first year' in there. Way to watch your back.

Justine

[Anna]

Flip,

The Bible itself indicates that we are not to attempt to privately interpret the Scriptures, but to learn from the teaching authority of the Church. (2 Peter 1:20 "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation," 2 Timothy 3:14-17 " But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it, and that from infancy you have known (the) sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work

for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God."

Christ established a Church, "And I say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it." —Matthew 16:13-18

The Church is the pillar of Truth. 1 Timothy 3:14 (" But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.")

When we are baptized Catholic, (often as infants, but some as adults) we become adopted children of God, members of His Family.

Our ears are blessed in a special way to receive His Holy Word.

We don't interpret it ourselves, as man is prideful and errs in his ways.

Rather, we trust in the Holy Spirit to Guide the Church which Christ founded.

That same Church which Christ founded existed for nearly 400 years with no compiled Bible. Then, this same church compiled the Bible, and has been its safekeeper and interpreter ever since.

The New Testament is a history of the Early Church. All that Christ taught the Apostles was handed down, either in writing, or in tradition. This is called the "Deposit of Faith," which he entrusted to the Church. We have His Word on it!

Mulls, you did a super-dee-duper job!

I only disagree on one point with you and Jake. I'm afraid I do feel that people are wasting their time in a Protestant Church.

Christ instituted the Sacraments, and offers Himself on the altar at every Mass, not only on Sundays, but every day of the week. His word is preached, and his Body and Blood are consumed by those who have been baptized and are properly disposed to receive Him.

When we invite Jesus into our hearts, we invite Him Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. He lives in us, and we in Him. (John 6)

As much as I'd like to invite you to receive Him, Flip, non-Catholics may not partake of this Sacrament of Unity. It means that you are totally united to the Church, and believe all she teaches. (1 Cor. 11:27): "Whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord"

There's nothing wrong with reading the Bible. It's good to read and meditate on the Word of God as often as possible! But it is not good to try to interpret the Scriptures according to what you'd like them to mean. Martin Luther did that, and he wound up editing the Holy Scriptures, taking out entire books, and inserting words that were not originally there!

Pax Christi. <><

Edited July 16, 2003 by Anna

[MC Just]

Great Post Anna!!!