Fidei Defensor Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 [quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 20 2005, 03:31 PM']Does a supreme intelligence require and even more supreme intelligence to create it? [right][snapback]651357[/snapback][/right] [/quote] No because this supreme intelligence is not of this universe, but outside of it. We dont know how things work outside of this universe, but inside it, everything must have a cause. Nothing is in and of itself, because it defies logic. If the universe was of an infinte regress, how did this infinite regress get here? The best bet on anyones part is to say that something outside of the universe is what caused the universe. Christians call this thing "God", but only, as i have stated, because of other evidence from God himself, such as Jesus, and other revelation. Other than that, we dont have reason to assume it is a god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 20 2005, 04:31 PM']As far as I know everything that makes up the composition of life is found in the universe. With that , I don't see how I would need a creator to faciliate anything when the universe is capable of doing so. I dont know what the ultimate origin is. [right][snapback]651357[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Something had to facilitate the universe. The ultimate origin is what we call God, Who is outside and thus not bound by the universe. To create it, He could not be bound by it. [quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 20 2005, 04:31 PM']I simply discussed with you how some people feel infinite regress can account for creation without an intelligent designer. [right][snapback]651357[/snapback][/right] [/quote] We cannot have an infinite regression, because at some point, something had to just "exist." [quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 20 2005, 04:31 PM']To think that only a supreme intelligence could create us simply relies on a pressuposition. We don't know. Does a supreme intelligence require and even more supreme intelligence to create it? [right][snapback]651357[/snapback][/right] [/quote] There can not be something more supreme than [b]the[/b] supreme. Nothing needs to create it, because it exists. It is the Origin. Edited July 20, 2005 by thedude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchisedec Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='Jul 20 2005, 03:21 PM']While all of this is true, I think what he means are things like bread and wine turning into physical flesh and blood, or real exorcisms - things that can be checked as to whether science can explain them, and if they are a hoax or not. [right][snapback]651341[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Well honestly, I don't know much about bread and wine being turned into flesh. I'll look into that further before I can comment. On exorcisms, I did some research and I actually have some real life accounts of it. Now, my wife had told me that one of her cousins was possesed and that he had an exorcism and she witnessed some of it and it terrified her. She felt that he was not himself during it. I ofcourse find her credible, but than again I don' t know if her cousin was acting. Now dateline had an interesting series on faith and miracles. They had one on exorcisms where this guy was supposedly possesed. They had sessions with this guy trying to remove the demon from him. He would scream obscenties in a husky satanic voice, squirm on the floor, wrestle with his ministers while they quoted bible verses. I couldn't help but to laugh at it. My personal opinion is that these possesed people are just charlatans, or suffering from mental disorders. I don't find it credible. Once upon a time, epileptic attacks were thought to be demon possesion, luckily science has removed the veil from our eyes. On a side note, the movie 'The exorcist' gave me nightmares for a good year when I was younger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted July 20, 2005 Author Share Posted July 20, 2005 but there is a beginning to life and an end..........this tells me that life had to have started at one point in time........what could have caused it? What about dna? Information that determines the type of life that is to become life.....a non living piece of matter does not contain DNA. It must have come from something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 The Church requires that one be cleared by a phsychologist before recieving an exorcism. I don't know much about exorcisms outside the Catholic Church, but I wouldn't be suprised if some of those non-Catholic "exorcists" were mistaking mental illness for possession. I do believe, however, that there are real demonic possessions and there are definately cases where a phsychological explanation could not be offered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchisedec Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 [quote name='thedude' date='Jul 20 2005, 03:43 PM']We cannot have an infinite regression, because at some point, something had to just "exist." [right][snapback]651387[/snapback][/right] [/quote] thedude, fidei defensor: And that something could just be a universe that gave birth to a plethora of universes, not a God that exists outside of time and space. Who knows. I definitely see where having a God fits in well with creation, but all in all, its just another metaphysical concept that one supposes or not. We certainly cannot test for something like this, hence we have faith. I don't think its a dumb idea, I just don't think its the only possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchisedec Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 20 2005, 03:46 PM']but there is a beginning to life and an end..........this tells me that life had to have started at one point in time........what could have caused it? What about dna? Information that determines the type of life that is to become life.....a non living piece of matter does not contain DNA. It must have come from something else. [right][snapback]651397[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Heh, we are back to where we started on my first post. What , who caused everything, I don't know. Its a mystery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmjtina Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 [quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 20 2005, 01:36 PM']This belongs in another thread, more suited for the nature of morality. I see what you are trying to imply, that we need an objective source for moral standards. [right][snapback]651271[/snapback][/right] [/quote] No, we don't need another thread IMHO. If you don't believe in God, then the next question follows. And if you don't think there is enough proof to know that there is a God, then obviously, there isn't enough proof to disprove Him either. And if your avatar says "Proud of My Ancestry" then you believe in Darwin's theory, even if he himself stated in his book that there had to be a higher being to allow it to be so? and the excorsist is scary enough to give ANYONE nightmares! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted July 20, 2005 Author Share Posted July 20, 2005 i just read about a case somewhere in eastern europe.......i think albania.........where a soon to be priest tried to preform an exorcism on a nun. He was not qualified at all to do this and i think he crucified her and didnt feed her for days. She ended up dying and the priest was excommunicated. If nothing bad comes from the exorcism i dont see anything wrong with trying to preform one.......whether the victim is possessed or not.......I dont know. Some victims may be looking for reasons on why they are the way they are. "Possession" could just be a scape goat. But I really dont know much about demon possession myself to really form an opinion. I will not just write it off as false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 [quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 20 2005, 03:51 PM']thedude, fidei defensor: And that something could just be a universe that gave birth to a plethora of universes, not a God that exists outside of time and space. Who knows. I definitely see where having a God fits in well with creation, but all in all, its just another metaphysical concept that one supposes or not. We certainly cannot test for something like this, hence we have faith. I don't think its a dumb idea, I just don't think its the only possibility. [right][snapback]651406[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I think "infinite regression" really dodges the issue. If something "farted" the universe, this implies pre-existing matter (of some form), and we are left with the question of where THAT came from. This does not answer anything philosophically, but simply tries to dodge the issue of the first cause by saying there is none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ergosum Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='Jul 20 2005, 02:41 PM']This is for ergosum- Do you believe that the historical Jesus existed? If not, why? [right][snapback]651275[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Yes, of course I believe that historically a man existed, who supposedly was called "Jesus" and whose story and life is chronicled in books other than the new testaments. And, you absolutely have NO NEED for a God to exist in order to have an OBJECTIVE foundation for morality. I do not subscribe to relativism, subjectivism, skepticism, or logical positivism. FYI: I was once a very very very very crazyily devout CATHOLIC. Then I spiritually converted to protestant Christianity. Later, due to some inconsistancies and dissatisfaction, I tried to understand Islam and Judaism. None of that worked for me... didn't make all the sense I wanted God to make. Then I looked at non-deistic religions like Buddhism, Jainism... nah. Those were worse! Then I found Atheism! Almost like my own personal religion. Only, I know it's better.. and TRUE! And now I feel so good, and "enlightened" and great about living this wonderful life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchisedec Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 [quote name='jmjtina' date='Jul 20 2005, 03:54 PM']No, we don't need another thread IMHO. If you don't believe in God, then the next question follows. And if you don't think there is enough proof to know that there is a God, then obviously, there isn't enough proof to disprove Him either. And if your avatar says "Proud of My Ancestry" then you believe in Darwin's theory, even if he himself stated in his book that there had to be a higher being to allow it to be so? and the excorsist is scary enough to give ANYONE nightmares! [right][snapback]651417[/snapback][/right] [/quote] You cannot disprove something that hasn't been proven. Its like court, the burden is on the person making the positive statement. As far as good ole darwin. Dont get caught in the evolution hoopla. Evolution says nothing about how life is created, just how life evolves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted July 20, 2005 Author Share Posted July 20, 2005 i think it is fine to go into morality on this thread........that is why i created it........because morality boils down to whether there is a god or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchisedec Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 20 2005, 03:56 PM']I think "infinite regression" really dodges the issue. If something "farted" the universe, this implies pre-existing matter (of some form), and we are left with the question of where THAT came from. This does not answer anything philosophically, but simply tries to dodge the issue of the first cause by saying there is none. [right][snapback]651424[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I agree and disagree with you socs. I agree its definitely been used as a dodge tool, a stalemate if you will. But at the same time, I don't see how we have to account for pre-existing matter, if I can just say it always existed. I just use the same logic that holds God from requiring a causer to say something like the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 [quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 20 2005, 04:51 PM']thedude, fidei defensor: And that something could just be a universe that gave birth to a plethora of universes, not a God that exists outside of time and space. [right][snapback]651406[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I hope we aren't pestering you, but my problem is that this "universe" (which gives birth to more universes, ect.) had to come from somewhere. Hence, there are two possibilities: This universe has an origin, and that origin is what we call God. or... ...this universe did not have an origin, it merely existed. In this case, what we are calling a "universe" is not really a universe, but God Himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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