Fidei Defensor Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 This is for ergosum- Do you believe that the historical Jesus existed? If not, why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchisedec Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 [quote name='thedude' date='Jul 20 2005, 02:19 PM']Pardon the somewhat odd nature of this comment: Couldn't we say that God was the one who "farted"? [right][snapback]651260[/snapback][/right] [/quote] You could suppose a huge number of things, that included . But that ofcourse is based on the presupposition that there is a God, and that God initiated the first cause. Its not proof of anything more than your own personal opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted July 20, 2005 Author Share Posted July 20, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 20 2005, 02:44 PM']You could suppose a huge number of things, that included . But that ofcourse is based on the presupposition that there is a God, and that God initiated the first cause. Its not proof of anything more than your own personal opinion. [right][snapback]651278[/snapback][/right] [/quote] i am still waiting to hear your stance mel and semalsia on miracles.....its the best "proof" that we can provide for you that there is a god. also, mel........check out this forum...........http://www.thesupernaturalworld.co.uk/forum/index.php? these people are associated with the occult......its a website based out of the UK........its wacky and i cant help but laugh at them. I read something about this green colored spirit interacting with this kid who had the flu. Some wicken witch posts something on the thread and says that green is a color of healing........lol........these people are so insecure but id like to see your intellect at work her mel.......maybe we should stick together on this one and slander them....if you choose become a member on the site. Edited July 20, 2005 by infinitelord1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 [quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 20 2005, 02:44 PM']You could suppose a huge number of things, that included . But that ofcourse is based on the presupposition that there is a God, and that God initiated the first cause. Its not proof of anything more than your own personal opinion. [right][snapback]651278[/snapback][/right] [/quote] The problem is though, why would one not choose to go with God over scientific speculation if you claim that neither has the ability to be proven, considering there is much more to be won with God if it turns out to be true, and nothing to lose if its wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 20 2005, 02:46 PM']i am still waiting to hear your stance mel and semalsia on miracles.....its the best "proof" that we can provide for you that there is a god. [right][snapback]651279[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Semalsia will tell you that it could easily be an act of science. But of course, the definiton of a miracle is that which defies science, so that is not a reliable answer. But this is exactly where we can find our comfort, if we get discouraged by all the big words used by atheists. We can presuppose God because of miracles that support that which we hold as our belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchisedec Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='Jul 20 2005, 02:47 PM']The problem is though, why would one not choose to go with God over scientific speculation if you claim that neither has the ability to be proven, considering there is much more to be won with God if it turns out to be true, and nothing to lose if its wrong? [right][snapback]651281[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Pascal's wager. Well with pascals wager we still have to deal with systems of theistic belief that have both reward and punishment. Even if I decided to be a theist, I'd still have to choose between a number of religions that have a form of torture and damnation and still could lose the bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 [quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 20 2005, 03:44 PM']You could suppose a huge number of things, that included . But that ofcourse is based on the presupposition that there is a God, and that God initiated the first cause. Its not proof of anything more than your own personal opinion. [right][snapback]651278[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I don't understand how supposing God initiated everything is the same as supposing a "fluffy air extraction" initiated evrything or that pigs fly. We both agree that the Ultimate Origin is something that just "exists." I am saying that God is the thing that just "exists" and in which everything has its ultimate origin. Anything else creating creation is ridiculous. What else can create but a Supreme Intelligence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 [quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 20 2005, 03:55 PM']Pascal's wager. Well with pascals wager we still have to deal with systems of theistic belief that have both reward and punishment. Even if I decided to be a theist, I'd still have to choose between a number of religions that have a form of torture and damnation and still could lose the bet. [right][snapback]651290[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Baby steps... Becoming a theist is the first step to finding the true religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 [quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 20 2005, 02:55 PM']Pascal's wager. Well with pascals wager we still have to deal with systems of theistic belief that have both reward and punishment. Even if I decided to be a theist, I'd still have to choose between a number of religions that have a form of torture and damnation and still could lose the bet. [right][snapback]651290[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Choosing to throw it all out is almost automatically damning yourself, and losing. I suggest that you start with Catholicism if you want to even remotely look into theistic beliefs, since you are already here and we are more than willing to help you out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted July 20, 2005 Author Share Posted July 20, 2005 (edited) yea, trust me mel, i think fidei is right.........protestants dont really look into the logic of things.......they just kind of float around in their beliefs. Mel, did you read my last post? Edited July 20, 2005 by infinitelord1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 20 2005, 04:06 PM']yea, trust me mel, i think fidei is right.........protestants dont really look into the logic of things.......they just kind of float around in their beliefs. Mel, did you read my last post? [right][snapback]651307[/snapback][/right] [/quote] He would also have to deal with Non-Christian religions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchisedec Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 20 2005, 02:46 PM']i am still waiting to hear your stance mel and semalsia on miracles.....its the best "proof" that we can provide for you that there is a god. also, mel........check out this forum...........http://www.thesupernaturalworld.co.uk/forum/index.php? these people are associated with the occult......its a website based out of the UK........its wacky and i cant help but laugh at them. I read something about this green colored spirit interacting with this kid who had the flu. Some wicken witch posts something on the thread and says that green is a color of healing........lol........these people are so insecure but id like to see your intellect at work her mel.......maybe we should stick together on this one and slander them....if you choose become a member on the site. [right][snapback]651279[/snapback][/right] [/quote] As far as miracles are concerned, I don't know of any that are factual. I've heard of fatima and our lady of guadalupe, which I refuted on this board a long time ago. Maybe I should look into further as far as miracles in general. But I find that people cry 'miracle' when something happens that science has no explanation for. Miracles are just another limb off the supernatural tree. In the philippines , you have people who go see these faith healers that use no tools but their hands to literally go in and grab a tumor, or disease out of the body. You have probably seen these charlatans on tv specials, pulling out , blood and guts out of their patients. Without any surgery. This is a common trick that has been done over and over, yet there are people who honestly believe they have been healed and have even document their cases. Here is an account from a website: [i]Well, at the time, I certainly thought so. I watched the procedures carefully and saw no reason to suspect sleight of hand or other hocus-pocus. The healer seems guided to one spot on the patient’s anatomy. He presses his fingers into the flesh there, and foreign matter literally rises to the surface. The skin parts, a small amount of blood is shed as the material is pulled out, and then, incredibly, the wound heals itself.[/i] Now as far as these wiccans are concerned. The moment you open yourself up to miracles , you open the door to the supernatural. Then we can introduce all sorts of these beliefs of ghost, healing crystals, mediums, automatic writing, and spirit invocations. I happen to know alot about the occult and the new age movement, and nothing is more in line with crazy supernatural beliefs than these people. Yet if you believe in miracles than why not these people? In fact, Catholics believe in demons, evil powers of the occult, witchcraft and some of this other supernatualisms. So you are probably inclined to believe them, but to believe that they are deriving their 'powers' from the devil. When you open youself to the supernatural, you open the door to a massive amount of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 [quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 20 2005, 03:14 PM']As far as miracles are concerned, I don't know of any that are factual. I've heard of fatima and our lady of guadalupe, which I refuted on this board a long time ago. Maybe I should look into further as far as miracles in general. But I find that people cry 'miracle' when something happens that science has no explanation for. Miracles are just another limb off the supernatural tree. In the philippines , you have people who go see these faith healers that use no tools but their hands to literally go in and grab a tumor, or disease out of the body. You have probably seen these charlatans on tv specials, pulling out , blood and guts out of their patients. Without any surgery. This is a common trick that has been done over and over, yet there are people who honestly believe they have been healed and have even document their cases. Here is an account from a website: [i]Well, at the time, I certainly thought so. I watched the procedures carefully and saw no reason to suspect sleight of hand or other hocus-pocus. The healer seems guided to one spot on the patient’s anatomy. He presses his fingers into the flesh there, and foreign matter literally rises to the surface. The skin parts, a small amount of blood is shed as the material is pulled out, and then, incredibly, the wound heals itself.[/i] Now as far as these wiccans are concerned. The moment you open yourself up to miracles , you open the door to the supernatural. Then we can introduce all sorts of these beliefs of ghost, healing crystals, mediums, automatic writing, and spirit invocations. I happen to know alot about the occult and the new age movement, and nothing is more in line with crazy supernatural beliefs than these people. Yet if you believe in miracles than why not these people? In fact, Catholics believe in demons, evil powers of the occult, witchcraft and some of this other supernatualisms. So you are probably inclined to believe them, but to believe that they are deriving their 'powers' from the devil. When you open youself to the supernatural, you open the door to a massive amount of things. [right][snapback]651325[/snapback][/right] [/quote] While all of this is true, I think what he means are things like bread and wine turning into physical flesh and blood, or real exorcisms - things that can be checked as to whether science can explain them, and if they are a hoax or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchisedec Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 [quote name='thedude' date='Jul 20 2005, 02:59 PM']I don't understand how supposing God initiated everything is the same as supposing a "fluffy air extraction" initiated evrything or that pigs fly. We both agree that the Ultimate Origin is something that just "exists." I am saying that God is the thing that just "exists" and in which everything has its ultimate origin. Anything else creating creation is ridiculous. What else can create but a Supreme Intelligence? [right][snapback]651294[/snapback][/right] [/quote] As far as I know everything that makes up the composition of life is found in the universe. With that , I don't see how I would need a creator to faciliate anything when the universe is capable of doing so. I dont know what the ultimate origin is. I simply discussed with you how some people feel infinite regress can account for creation without an intelligent designer. To think that only a supreme intelligence could create us simply relies on a pressuposition. We don't know. Does a supreme intelligence require and even more supreme intelligence to create it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 Also, if you go to an exorcist who has performed a real exorcism, and tell him that that God does not exist, I promise you that he will laugh at you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now