is there a god?

[ergosum]

Oh, and another thing. I just noticed that my repeated mention of my blog site (here I do it again!) can be construed as my attempts to recruit visitors to my site.
But I'd like to clarify my position on that. I don't care if you do visit the site or not. It's not my intention to do that. The reason I repeatedly mentioned my site was only because some of the topics I was discussing I have already covered on my blog in the posts and comments. Thus, lazy that I am, I just thought I'd refer you to my site instead of regurgitating all of it on this forum (phorum?) again.
If you are an honest inquirer, looking to really learn all angles of this discussion, you will most likely visit my blog to read about my perspectives on so many of these issues.

Thanks.
Ergo.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote]Now, Reason ofcourse is the ONLY ONE AND ONLY competent means to gaining and attaining and integrating knowledge that we HUMANS possess. Arriving at any conclusion by Reason gives us the capacity to check our premises and our conclusions and identify any errors we may have mistakenly assumed as real or true.
Remember: Logic CANNOT have any contradictions. And contradictions DO NOT EXIST at all in this real world
THis cannot be a pen and a book at the same time. That is a contradiction.
Since, contradictions have NO reality and NO existence, pure logic and reason SHOULD reflect the non-contradictory nature of reality and existence[/quote]
Yet, if there are documented cases of pieces of bread turning into physical flesh, and wine turning into physical blood. "Science" has confirmed that these things were indeed what they were claimed to be - flesh and blood.

Bread and wine turning into flesh and blood contradicts everything that science has told us. Bread does not turn into flesh.

So what forces of nature do you propose turned bread into flesh?

In the case of God, miracles (and revelation from God) are the observations that we use to reason the existence of God. Faith provides us with the answer of "yes, God exists", and miracles and revelation provide the reason and logic of knowing the he does.

Why does bread turning into flesh = reasoning that God exists?
Because Jesus has told us, at the last supper, that the bread he held in his hand was his flesh, and that the wine in his cup was his blood, and that we would continue to celebrate this "action" or supper until he returns. So if, but no logical reason we can find, bread and wine turn into flesh and blood that we can physically see, we must assume that it was God who caused this to occur, and that Jesus was God, because he has already demonstrated that he could do this action, and it cannot be explained by any other means, and we have past experience telling us God is what causes this, by reason.

So in other words.. Jesus told us that the bread and wine he held were his flesh and blood. We have to use faith to accept that what he was saying was true. But, when bread and wine do physically turn into flesh and blood, and we have no other means to explain it, we must believe that Jesus was then telling the truth, and the God indeed caused the change of the bread and wine.

um yes, i realize that was confusing. oh well.

[ergosum]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Jul 20 2005, 12:24 PM']Oh boy, I have so many questions and so little time.

My first question is - where do you stand on why the universe exists and how it reached the point of which we now call present.
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On that question, I'll say this:

Even the today's best scientists, who are immensely more knowledgeable about these cosmic issues than I am, are struggling to have a definitive answer to those questions. Thus, I will admit to saying I don't know the answer to those questions -- just like a genuine scientist will and should gladly admit to not knowing something rather than holding onto a position that has no evidence or weak evidence or evidence to the contrary.
Thus, is the Universe infinite? I don't know. I'll wait for reality and our knowledge of reality to play itself out and show me the answers, or the means of getting to those answers.

Where I am uncertain, I will freely admit to not knowing, rather than holding on to some obtuse assumptions based solely on faith. So, if I don't know the details of the beginnings of the Universe, should I assume God created it? Absolutely NOT!
Should I then say the Universe is self-sustaining and infinite? Absolutely NOT! Even the scientists have no proof for this statement, then on what authority can I say that?
Should I then say that Aliens from another Universe created our Universe? Absolutely NOT! Because that goes against the rest of my body of knowledge and logical reasoning... leading to me first ask, how did the Aliens and their Universe come into existance?

So, to things I don't know.. I will say I don't know.

Now, does God exist? Absolutely NOT. This is a fact that I have come to grasp and understand not primarily through inference and deduction, but primarily through contemplating the inherent nature of such a "Being" and its consistancy with the rest of my body of knowledge. I can reach this conclusion through strong logically consistent, reasoned thinking.
Furthermore, I can inductively use empirical and experiential knowledge to bolster my arguments as a secondary method of argument.

[reelguy227]

God is real ,thats all there is to it .

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='thedude' date='Jul 20 2005, 12:23 PM']Would it be fair to say that this "first universe" is actually God Himself?
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I really don't see how, but then again I'm no cosmologist. If I were to support the big bang, would it be fair to say that the first cause was a fluffy air extraction in space? You can presuppose God did it, I can presuppose some celestial flatulence led to it, ultimately I think its unanswerable.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote]Now, does God exist? Absolutely NOT[/quote]
You cannot absolutely know that.
I read over your blog, and i notice that you tend to place human characteristics as restrains on why God cannot exist.

Our minds are most definatly limited, so to say that you can absolutely know that God does not exist, contradicts what you just said about not knowing how the universe came to be. If scientists cant even figure out the universe and we have all these physical aspects to work with, how can you possibly "disprove" the existence of God, who is outside all of our physical limitations, and outside of this universe?

[Semperviva]

[quote name='ergosum' date='Jul 20 2005, 10:19 AM']


Now, someone here said "Faith, by definition, begs no questions because it desires no proof, it needs no proof."
That is fully true.
And therefore, on faith I can believe in anything. I can believe in Batman. Or if I'm feeling whimsy enough, I can believe in Batman and Superman at the same time.
Faith gives you NO CAPACITY to check ANY of your premises and contemplate your errors because YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT ERRORS you may have made. You are REQUIRED to believe things on FAITH because "faith, by definition,... desires no proof, it needs no proof" to believe in anything... even Batman!

Thus, the fallacy of Stolen Concept? You cannot claim faith as a "firmer" foundation to attaining knowledge than Reason is by openly admitting how ANYTHING and EVERYTHING can be accepted as "knowledge" without any need for justification, reason, proof, or logic. Such is your fallacy: you accept anything and everything on your whimsical, fuzzy feelings of the day. On faith. And you claim that it must be TRUE because it makes you feel good and if's based on faith!


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it just seems to me that it would be illogical
in every way to believe in batman
because for example-
you can speak to the author of batman who will tell you honestly that he made it up-
he won't say
i was inspired by the Spirit of Batman to reveal truth to mankind, he'll say yeah i made it up...LOL
whereas the man who wrote scripture would say
this is truth and he who changes one word of it be anathema and

CS Lewis might say this scripture writer is either insane, a very imaginative lyer, or telling the truth.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 20 2005, 01:09 PM']I really don't see how, but then again I'm no cosmologist.  If I were to support the big bang, would it be fair to say that the first cause was a fluffy air extraction in space? You can presuppose God did it, I can presuppose some celestial flatulence led to it,  ultimately I think its unanswerable.
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This is a fair to say, except we presuppose God in light of revelation and worldly "proof" - i.e. miracles.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Jul 20 2005, 12:24 PM']Oh boy, I have so many questions and so little time.

My first question is - where do you stand on why the universe exists and how it reached the point of which we now call present.
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I think this basicly touches on my earlier post on people wanting explanations. I don't know is not a suitable answer for people, they must know. They rather have some explanation than none.

Edited July 20, 2005 by Melchisedec

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jul 20 2005, 01:10 PM']CS Lewis might say this scripture writer is either insane, a very imaginative lyer, or telling the truth.
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But there are really more than 3 choices. You might be able to add deluded, misquoted, Fabricated, or otherwise fictionalized. Just throwing it out there.

[Quietfire]

You could read this.

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/100203.htm"]Whether GOD exists-from New Advent[/url]

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 20 2005, 01:20 PM']But there are really more than 3 choices.  You might be able to add deluded, misquoted, Fabricated, or otherwise fictionalized. Just throwing it out there.
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deluded is a form of mental instability

fabricated and fiction would be lier ( cause it would be fiction intended to decieve)

MIS QUOTED now there..thats one other possiblity exept fot the lists of names and eyewitnesses given in scripture...

[jmjtina]

[quote name='ergosum' date='Jul 20 2005, 11:50 AM']Now, does God exist? Absolutely NOT. This is a fact that I have come to grasp and understand not primarily through inference and deduction, but primarily through contemplating the inherent nature of such a "Being" and its consistancy with the rest of my body of knowledge. I can reach this conclusion through strong logically consistent, reasoned thinking.
Furthermore, I can inductively use empirical and experiential knowledge to bolster my arguments as a secondary method of argument.
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Okay, so God does not exsist. How do you define good and evil? Do they exisist? And are they purely subjective?

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 20 2005, 02:09 PM']I really don't see how, but then again I'm no cosmologist.  If I were to support the big bang, would it be fair to say that the first cause was a fluffy air extraction in space? You can presuppose God did it, I can presuppose some celestial flatulence led to it,  ultimately I think its unanswerable.
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Pardon the somewhat odd nature of this comment:
Couldn't we say that God was the one who "farted"?

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='jmjtina' date='Jul 20 2005, 02:05 PM']Okay, so God does not exsist. How do you define good and evil? Do they exisist? And are they purely subjective?
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This belongs in another thread, more suited for the nature of morality. I see what you are trying to imply, that we need an objective source for moral standards.