is there a god?

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Jul 19 2005, 03:46 PM']Yes there is a God.  I win.  Game over.
[right][snapback]650142[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
You are in violation of law px379 which states "state the main reason why you believe in god". fortunately, for you it is just a slap on the wrist......next time charges may and will be filed against you. infinitelord1 is governer of this thread.........he knows the law.......they are his laws.

Edited July 19, 2005 by infinitelord1

[Semalsia]

[quote name='infinitelord1']dont just say "because we have no reason to" that would totally just ruin this thread.[/quote]

I wonder why speaking the truth would ruin this thread...

Atheism is the default position and if the arguments for the existence of god fail, there is no reason to be theist. Theists have the burden of proof, remember? And to remain an atheist is justified until that sufficient proof comes along.


I do think there is no god, though. And that is more about what this thread is about. So I'll try to explain couple of my reasons for it.

There is the argument from Santa Claus. Even though we can't positively prove that there is absolutely no way Santa Claus can exist, it is still justified to say that there is no Santa. The same applies to everything. For example, I could claim that there is a magical dog under your bed, but everytime you try to look in there, in turns itself invisible. You can't prove me wrong, but obviously you are justified in saying that it isn't there. Common sense really..

The consept of god doesn't make sense. A perfect being's properties would contradict each other. So there is no way god can logically exist. Example1: omnipotent being can't make a stone that he can't break. If there is a object of infinite durability, then there can't be a infinite force (to break it). These things can't logically both be possible to exist, so therefore omnipotence is not possible either. Example2: omniscient being knows what he will do in the future, therefore he can't change his future actions and therefore he can't be omnipotent.

I already said that god is not visible in the universe (Santa Claus), but that is actually another argument too. If god existed, then it would show in the universe. There would be order and design in the universe, in the species, etc. In fact, the universe looks exactly like it would, if there were no god. The world is chaotic and random. The only conclusion is that there is no god.

Considering that and looking at the thousands of religions. If god wanted people to know him, would the Earth really look like this? Gods are too easily made for them to be real.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Jul 19 2005, 05:39 PM'][quote name='infinitelord1']dont just say "because we have no reason to" that would totally just ruin this thread.[/quote]

I wonder why speaking the truth would ruin this thread...

Atheism is the default position and if the arguments for the existence of god fail, there is no reason to be theist. Theists have the burden of proof, remember? And to remain an atheist is justified until that sufficient proof comes along.
I do think there is no god, though. And that is more about what this thread is about. So I'll try to explain couple of my reasons for it.

There is the argument from Santa Claus. Even though we can't positively prove that there is absolutely no way Santa Claus can exist, it is still justified to say that there is no Santa. The same applies to everything. For example, I could claim that there is a magical dog under your bed, but everytime you try to look in there, in turns itself invisible. You can't prove me wrong, but obviously you are justified in saying that it isn't there. Common sense really..

The consept of god doesn't make sense. A perfect being's properties would contradict each other. So there is no way god can logically exist. Example1: omnipotent being can't make a stone that he can't break. If there is a object of infinite durability, then there can't be a infinite force (to break it). These things can't logically both be possible to exist, so therefore omnipotence is not possible either. Example2: omniscient being knows what he will do in the future, therefore he can't change his future actions and therefore he can't be omnipotent.

I already said that god is not visible in the universe (Santa Claus), but that is actually another argument too. If god existed, then it would show in the universe. There would be order and design in the universe, in the species, etc. In fact, the universe looks exactly like it would, if there were no god. The world is chaotic and random. The only conclusion is that there is no god.

Considering that and looking at the thousands of religions. If god wanted people to know him, would the Earth really look like this? Gods are too easily made for them to be real.
[right][snapback]650237[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
i have personally never seen an arguement for the existence of god fail. But i agree that atheism is a default postion. However, atheists take a stance that there is no god........you are saying that "in your mind" theist arguements fail.........so to you that is proof that there is no god. Ive always had a hard time making that connection in regards to atheist logic. Logically, i would think that if something isnt convincing me that there is a god then i am still undecided........rather than jumping to the opposite extreme without reason and saying there is no god.

[Carrie]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 19 2005, 07:00 PM']You are in violation of law px379 which states "state the main reason why you believe in god". fortunately, for you it is just a slap on the wrist......next time charges may and will be filed against you. infinitelord1 is governer of this thread.........he knows the law.......they are his laws.
[right][snapback]650198[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Oohh, a slap on the wrist! Sorry governor!


I believe in God because God believes in me.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Jul 19 2005, 06:49 PM']Oohh, a slap on the wrist!  Sorry governor!
I believe in God because God believes in me. 
[right][snapback]650304[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
you have been issued a warrant for your arrest.......how do you plea? You have the right to remain silent anything you say may be used against you in infinitelord1's court of law. Do you think that "I believe in God because God believes in me" is gonna be a very strong case?

[Carrie]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 19 2005, 08:56 PM']how do you plea?
[right][snapback]650309[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Guilty

[quote]Do you think that "I believe in God because God believes in me" is gonna be a very strong case[/quote]

The strongest ever!

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Jul 19 2005, 07:00 PM']Guilty
The strongest ever!
[right][snapback]650313[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Did you know that 100% of the jurors in my courtroom are atheist? How do you plan on living after all of this? The law states that misconduct is punishable by death........i fear for your life carrie.

Edited July 20, 2005 by infinitelord1

[Carrie]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 19 2005, 09:13 PM']Did you know that 100% of the jurors in my courtroom are atheist? How do you plan on living after all of this? The law states that misconduct is punishable by death........i fear for your life carrie.
[right][snapback]650329[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

It's all good.

Atheist jurors don't scare me dear.

I'd willingly die for my faith.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='infinitelord1']you are saying that "in your mind" theist arguements fail.........so to you that is proof that there is no god.[/quote]

No, no.. I didn't mean that as a proof. Just a justification not to believe.

[infinitelord1]

justification is the same thing as reason in my book. There is nothing that suggests that there is no creator........let alone justifies or reasons.

I wonder if mel has seen this yet......i enjoy slandering his belief system. Im pretty sure he likes slandering mine too. If he was in on this.....things would be that much more interesting.

Hey, semalsia..........will go out with me? LOL.

Edited July 20, 2005 by infinitelord1

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I'm a firm believer in the "First Cause" arguement. It's impervious. I just read a "refutation" of it and laughed at it.

[url="http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/first-cause.htm"]http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/first-cause.htm[/url]

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 19 2005, 07:29 PM']justification is the same thing as reason in my book. There is nothing that suggests that there is no creator........let alone justifies or reasons.

I wonder if mel has seen this yet......i enjoy slandering his belief system. Im pretty sure he likes slandering mine too. If he was in on this.....things would be that much more interesting.

Hey, semalsia..........will go out with me? LOL.
[right][snapback]650347[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


I have seen this, yes, and I recall countless circles of argumentation we have participated in. My 2cents is this. The main argument I see often is out of complexity. Life is complex, we cannot explain why its so complex, so God did it. This is the good ole 'God of the gaps' argument. To me, I cannot be convinced on those arguments, many people can. Another argument is the one pertaining to God being the first uncaused caused. Kalam, Aquinas. Now if you believe that the big bang theory is concrete, than you can ascribe to this. Or you can take the infinite regress stance(multiverse) then there requires absolutely no first cause. Those are the two main arguments that I have seen. There are a number of others, like the 'problem with evil' , 'objective morality', and a bunch more that really dont do much for me.

People want to make sense of the world, and christianity and other religions do help make alot of sense of the world. I will not deny that. Its very coherent for people to grasp. Atheism doesn't explain much. Atheism is just a stance on no belief, it doesnt say squat on what you do believe. Moreover, it doesn't have answers for how we got here, how the universe is, or why it works the way it does. People do not find that acceptable. I see alot of arguments against atheism simply on the fact that since theism can account for more by way of having some sort of explanation, than its better to believe. I think that is mainly due to people no liking to have questions left unanswered.

To me , being a skeptic, you have to keep an open mind. I've listened to great philosophers from atheist like Dawkins, Carrier to theist like Plantinga, Craig. I find both sides compelling really.

[reelguy227]

I believe in God ,because the big bang doesnt really show how the universe got created . It claims that it just started with a big bang ,where did that big bang come from if there was nothing here to start that explosion ? This implies a creator ,God .

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 19 2005, 08:03 PM']I have seen this, yes, and I recall countless circles of argumentation we have participated in.  My 2cents is this.  The main argument I see often is out of complexity. Life is complex, we cannot explain why its so complex, so God did it. This is the good ole 'God of the gaps' argument.  To me, I cannot be convinced on those arguments, many people can.  Another argument is the one pertaining to God being the first uncaused caused. Kalam, Aquinas. Now if you believe that the big bang theory is concrete, than you can ascribe to this. Or you can take the infinite regress stance(multiverse)  then there requires absolutely no first cause. Those are the two main arguments that I have seen.  There are a number of others, like the 'problem with evil' , 'objective morality',  and a bunch more that really dont do much for me. 

People want to make sense of the world, and christianity and other religions do help make alot of sense of the world. I will not deny that.  Its very coherent for people to grasp. Atheism doesn't explain much. Atheism is just a stance on no belief, it doesnt say squat on what you do believe.  Moreover, it doesn't have answers for how we got here, how the universe is, or why it works the way it does. People do not find that acceptable. I see alot of arguments against atheism simply on the fact that since theism can account for more by way of having some sort of explanation, than its better to believe. I think that is mainly due to people no liking to have questions left unanswered. 

To me , being a skeptic, you have to keep an open mind.  I've listened to great philosophers from atheist like Dawkins, Carrier to theist like Plantinga, Craig. I find both sides compelling really.
[right][snapback]650385[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
i see this as a very valid opinion on the matter........shouldnt you be claiming agnostic?

[infinitelord1]

i really wish i could find fallicy in your arguement mel, but i cant. I think what skeptics are really looking for is proof. I must admit.......i am a skeptic also, but i tend to stray more towards the belief in god. I think it is a 51/49 probability. The sad thing is we will never have proof of a god existing. So all that search for proof is really pointless. Let us not forget though that we will never have proof that there is no god. So what are we left with? Faith. To be honest, i never cared about whether there was a god or not until i started suffering from SSA. Your first thought might be "this guy wont accept the fact the he is gay". Well, you are correct. I wont accept it. Honestly, i tried to.......but something inside or outside (I dont know)of me wouldnt let me. The more and more i tried to accept it.....the worse i felt. So, i started to look for an answer. Just like you said mel, people look for answers and ultimately they end up with the belief in god. It may have been easier for them to accept rather than not having an answer at all. I cant say i have had a whole lot of changes in myself when it comes down to god. Although, i must note that there have been some changes.......as far as SSA goes it is not as intense. Which i really like that. I really dont know what else to say.

Edited July 20, 2005 by infinitelord1