First Century Christian-Jewish Relations

[Paladin D]

Littleless, these are similar tactics Nazis use to deny the existance of the WWII Holocaust against the Jews.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Jul 20 2005, 04:32 PM']Littleless, these are similar tactics Nazis use to deny the existance of the WWII Holocaust against the Jews.
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RESPONSE:

I'm afraid I not following you. What are the "similar tactics Nazis use to deny the WWII Holocost..."?

[Paladin D]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 20 2005, 06:19 PM']RESPONSE:

I'm afraid I not following you. What are the "similar tactics Nazis use to deny the WWII Holocost..."?
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Sorry, thought your name had two [b]s[/b]'s at the end.

What I mean is, you're using various sources that are modern liberalistic theories, in contradiction to well-established facts. When you're not using these, you're quoting the well-established ones but taking them out of context. And if you're not doing that, you make bold statements but don't quote the actual text from the source you say you get it from.

With Nazis, they tend to follow the same patterns, trying to find [b]anything[/b] or twist [b]anything[/b] to deny the existance of the Holocaust.


All that we (those of Phatmass) ask is that you engage in charitiable, constructive, purely honest, and proper debate/discussion. How hard is that?

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Jul 20 2005, 07:39 PM']Sorry, thought your name had two [b]s[/b]'s at the end.

[/quote]

RESPONSE:

Not a problem

"Here lies Les who used to snore,
Killed by six shots from a .44,
No Less, no more!

Actually, I'm originally from Jersey and still answer to "Hey, Yo!"

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Jul 20 2005, 07:39 PM']

What I mean is, you're using various sources that are modern liberalistic theories, in contradiction to well-established facts.  When you're not using these, you're quoting the well-established ones but taking them out of context.  And if you're not doing that, you make bold statements but don't quote the actual text from the source you say you get it from.

With Nazis, they tend to follow the same patterns, trying to find [b]anything[/b] or twist [b]anything[/b] to deny the existance of the Holocaust.
All that we (those of Phatmass) ask is that you engage in charitiable, constructive, purely honest, and proper debate/discussion.  How hard is that?
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RESPONSE:

On the contrary. I'm stating documentable facts which contradict some erroneous preconceptions of a belief system. I'll have to admit, that for a long time I held many of these same preconceptions myself. But in time I put them aside. ( For example, I no longer believe that only the Catholic Church possesses the "Truth, " and all nonCatholics are in error if they in any way deviate from the Catholic party line). Eventually, I started to evaluate the issues based on the evidence. Expecially the contradictions.

And the "out-of-context" argument is a convenient fall back position if someone really can't explain an obvious error. The recent example that came up, Luke claiming that the Ascension occurred on Easter Sunday and from Bethany; with Acts claiming the Ascension occurred forty days after Easter and from Mt. Olivet, clearly does not involve "context." It involves contradiction. (Actually, I was kind of waiting to see if some apologist tried to say these passages really said the same thing if put in the proper context).

And I think your Nazi argument is a bit nonsensical. It's reminds me of John Cleese's lapsing into his "That's how Nazi Germany began" claim when he has no other argument.

But I'm curious if are still maintaining the traditional Church teaching that the earth doesn't move? Rumor has it that you are beginning to deviate from the party line on this scripturally based truth.

We've entered this deviation into your file. Tell me. Do you have relatives in the Old Country????

[Paladin D]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 20 2005, 10:15 PM']RESPONSE:

I'll have to admit, that for a long time I held many of these same preconceptions myself.  But in time I  put them aside.  ( For example, I no longer believe that only the Catholic Church possesses the "Truth, " and  all nonCatholics are in error if they in any way deviate from the Catholic party line).  Eventually, I started to evaluate the issues based on the evidence. Expecially the contradictions.
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Interesting, my story is almost the opposite. Curious as how we came to our conclusions.

[LittleLes]

Reading the New Testament carefully (or reading histories of the early Christian period) discloses that the sect called the Way, the first Christians, actually was composed of two slightly different groups: the orthodox Jewish-Chriatians and the non-Jewish Hellenicists (mainly Greeks) referred to as Gentiles.

The first dispute we see involves the equity of the ministration to Gentile widows (Acts 6;1) The problem was solved by the appointment of seven deacons, Stephen and the others (notice that they all have Greek rather than Hebrew names).

And, of course, there is Acts 15, the Council of Jerusalem of 49 A.D. in which it was decided that the non-Jews didn't have to be circumcised but were only required to observe the Noadhide laws, the same as other non-Jewish members in Judaism itself.

[LittleLes]

1. Following the Ascension, the disciples returned to Jerusalem (Acts 1:12)

2. The first disciples met daily in the Temple. (Acts 2:46)

3. Peter and John went to the Temple to pray. (Acts 3:1)

4. Gamaliel, a leading Pharisee, mentioned several possible messiahs who had come forth and recommended that the Jewish-Christians be left alone since their movement might be from God. Other members of the Temple leadership agreed. (Acts 5:34-40)

5. They taught and preached about Jesus in the Temple and in every house. (Acts 5:42)

6. There came to be many thousands of Jewish believers and they were zealous for the law (of Moses). (Acts 21:20)

7. Paul approved of an offering made in the Temple. (Acts21:26).

In sum, the original apostles and disciples of Jesus, regarding him as the Messiah, continued to be observant Jews and were accepted as such by the Temple membership and leaders.

[DannyBoy]

Les,

I like you...you've got passion and that my friend is the first step toward conversion. We'll be seeing you soon I am sure . You will be in my prayers.

Ne timeas...ecce homo...esto vir!

[LittleLes]

As evidenced by the Acts of the Apostles (as cited in the posts above), so long as the first century Jewish Christian community -Jesus' original followers - remained monotheists and followed the Law of Moses, they were welcome to remain a sect within orthodox Judaism and continued to use the Temple and the synagogues.

There was no problem with their belief in Jesus as the Messiah since there were several contenders for that role, and the Pharisees took a wait and see attitude (see Acts 5:34-39).

However, about 90 A.D., at Jamnia, the followers of Jesus were labeled as heretics, anathematized, and excluded from the synagogues.

Question: What had changed?????

Re: Encyclopedia Judaica, Macmillan Co., NY, vol 9, page 1176.

The good news is that some kind person extracted the pertainent sections of this reference and published them on the web at:

[url="http://members.aol.com/johnprh/curse.html"]http://members.aol.com/johnprh/curse.html[/url]

[LittleLes]

So following the death and ascension of Jesus about 32 A.D. his followers remained Torah observant Jews and part of the Jewish community. This continued until about 90 A.D. when they were labeled heretics and excluded from the Temple.

The Gospel of John written about this time or shortly thereafter refers to this event:

Jn 9:22 "His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews, for the Jews had already agreed that if anyone acknowledged him as the Messiah, he would be expelled from the synagogue"

Jn 12:42 "Nevertheless, many, even among the authorities, believed in him, but because of the Pharisees they did not acknowledge it openly in order not to be expelled from the synagogue.

Jn 16:2 "They will expel you from the synagogues; in fact, the hour 1 is coming when everyone who kills you will think he is offering worship to God."

Why, after 60 years, were the members of the Way excluded? Was there a change in their belief system which caused them to be labeled as heretics by the Jewish authorities?

[LittleLes]

The first followers of Jesus after the Ascension c. 32 AD, remained a sect within orthodox Judaism, monotheistic, Torah observant, and praying in the Temple and synagogues. (See Acts and John). But after about 60 years (c 90AD), they were expelled from the synagogues by the Jewish authorities and labeled as heretics.

Which of the following reasons (or suggest alternates) caused this to happen:

1. The Jewish Christians began to claim divinity for Jesus and this conflicted with Judaism's strict monotheism. While the Jews were open to someone being the Messiah, he would not be divine.

2. Jesus did not return (parousia) as he had prophecized.

3. Some of the Jewish Christians, perhaps at Paul's urging, began to deviate from strict Torah observance. Some adopted Gnostic beliefs (as described in John 1).

[Guest illegitimo]

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[quote]It is commonly but mistakenly held that from the very beginning of Christianity, Christians and Jews were foes. But this is not the case.[/quote]

If you read Acti Pilati (the acts of pilate) It is not a bit surprising that the Jewish religeous authorities were tolerant. When you add the events of the trial and crucufiction the ressurection of Moshiach ben Joseph/David and the saints and all the other witnesses there must have been. Remember that James the brother of Jesus taught in the temple right up to the rebellion (which he was probably murdered trying to prevent)and subsequent destruction (by errant Roman soldiers seeking to melt the remaining gold from the joints of the stones) of the remnants (minus the ark) of the second temple.

The ressurection events would have undoubtably converted the cult of the Sadduces immediately into some more benign form. Imagine if it all happened up your street.

Not an extraordinary stretch of the imagination. I´m sure you will agree.

[kateri05]

woah, thats an old thread!

ps. what ever happened to Littleles and Todd?

[homeschoolmom]

Little Les only has 3838 hours left on his suspension. I'm sure he's waiting patiently to get back in the game.