What Do You Think Of This...

[Freaky Chik]

Hey all, I just wanna hear your thoughts on this, before I even begin to say "you're wrong nyah nyah nyah" and not let you get a chance to 'explain' (donno any better word?)

anyways... you know how you all claim that Peter is the rock, on which Christ built? or whatever, something like that heheh..

what do you think of this verse i read...

from Isaiah 44:8

Do not tremble, do not be afraid.

Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?

You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?

No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.

[God Conquers]

If you place this verse into context, It is God speaking about his nature. He's just reiterating that there is no other God.

[cmotherofpirl]

Out of context this verse could be used to deny the divinity of Jesus Christ as well, and to uphold Muslim contention that Jesus is merely a phrophet.

Thats why you need context and someone outside the bible ( i.e.the Catholic Church who has the legitimate authority given by Jesus) to interpret scripture.

[Norseman82]

Please keep in mind that this is old testament, and certain things in the new testament supersede the old.

[M.SIGGA]

If you place this verse into context, It is God speaking about his nature. He's just reiterating that there is no other God.

ditto. Isaiah Chapters 40-55 were also written after the destruction of the northern kingdom of Israel and seige of Jerusalem in the southern kingdom of Judah by that He is the only ROCK so they would not assimilate into their pagan culture and worship their pagan gods, which the ancient Israelites had the tendency to do.

Is there any God besides me?

You forgot to make this line bold too.

Jesus, who is God, said Himself that on this ROCK (Peter - which means rock) I will build my Church. Jesus also speaks in a parable that the wise man builds his house upon a rock rather than in the sand where the fool makes his tent.

The old testement predicts Jesus's words to Peter in the Book of Daniel 2:31-45, where a ROCK destroys the Great Statue of Pagan Empires in King Nebuchannezer's Dream - beginning with Babylonians, the Medes, the Persians, the Helenists, and finally the Romans (other than Babylon, the rest of the statue is interpreted by Christian theologians as representing the other empires that conquered Israel up until the comming of Christ).

anyways... you know how you all claim that Peter is the rock, on which Christ built? or whatever, something like that heheh..

As a Christian, you should too also believe that you are also a part of the Church that Jesus describes in the Book of Matthew, right? Just because you don't like the Pope as much as we do doesn't dis you from being a part of the Church, we are separated brethren as the Pope himself calls it (someone is might have something to disagree with this but this is what I believe). I believe Protestantism has watered down Jesus' intentions for His Church on Earth, and like it or not you all do accept Catholic dogmas and traditions such as the Trinity and Sunday Sabbath and the New Testement Cannon but you all are Christians none-the-less.

What do you think about this FreakyChic? Please respond.

Edited November 18, 2003 by M.SIGGA

[Freaky Chik]

If you place this verse into context, It is God speaking about his nature. He's just reiterating that there is no other God.

Yes you are right, there is no other God. But God used "rock" as something of his character, and according to Him there is no other Rock.... so why would he make Peter a rock?

Out of context this verse could be used to deny the divinity of Jesus Christ as well, and to uphold Muslim contention that Jesus is merely a phrophet.

I don't understand what you meant by that?

Please keep in mind that this is old testament, and certain things in the new testament supersede the old.

You are right, but I highly doubt the fact that God is the only God and only Rock is going to change. "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." Hebrews 13:8

QUOTE (God Conquers @ Nov 18 2003, 08:07 AM)

If you place this verse into context, It is God speaking about his nature. He's just reiterating that there is no other God.

ditto. Isaiah Chapters 40-55 were also written after the destruction of the northern kingdom of Israel and seige of Jerusalem in the southern kingdom of Judah by that He is the only ROCK so they would not assimilate into their pagan culture and worship their pagan gods, which the ancient Israelites had the tendency to do.

QUOTE 

Is there any God besides me? 

You forgot to make this line bold too.

Jesus, who is God, said Himself that on this ROCK (Peter - which means rock) I will build my Church. Jesus also speaks in a parable that the wise man builds his house upon a rock rather than in the sand where the fool makes his tent.

The old testement predicts Jesus's words to Peter in the Book of Daniel 2:31-45, where a ROCK destroys the Great Statue of Pagan Empires in King Nebuchannezer's Dream - beginning with Babylonians, the Medes, the Persians, the Helenists, and finally the Romans (other than Babylon, the rest of the statue is interpreted by Christian theologians as representing the other empires that conquered Israel up until the comming of Christ).

M.SIGGA i'm sorta confused by what you mean. Lets just say I'm not a highly intellectual person and I'm kinda slow to take things in, would u be able to re-explain what yer point was? Sorry. Thanks. :D

Just because you don't like the Pope as much as we do

I don't even know the Pope haha so how could i say I don't like him? I'm sure he is a nice lad but I've never met him before. And I don't even know much about his life and what he has done, so how could I even think about forming a judgment?

anyways thanks guys for responding but yer replies didnt' really do it's justice for me?

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Freaky Chic, When Jesus Said "You are PETER (Kepha, Rock) and upon this ROCK (Kepha, Peter) I will build my Church" He wasnt referring Peter as GOD, Kepha, greek for small rock whereas God is the BIG ROCK, We didnt invent the fact that Peter was the ROCK, Jesus said this, its in the Bible plain as day.

Peter being the Small Rock places him as a visible Sign of Christ on Earth, he is the Vicar of Christ, because Jesus said that he was the Small Rock that the Church was built on, whereas Jesus is the Big Rock that is the Cornerstone of the Church.

The way your interpreting it is making it sound like were saying Peter is God, the BIG ROck..and thats not true of course.

Hope this helps,

CatholicAndFanatical

[Dave]

Freaky Chic, When Jesus Said "You are PETER (Kepha, Rock) and upon this ROCK (Kepha, Peter) I will build my Church"  He wasnt referring Peter as GOD, Kepha, greek for small rock whereas God is the BIG ROCK, We didnt invent the fact that Peter was the ROCK, Jesus said this, its in the Bible plain as day.

  Peter being the Small Rock places him as a visible Sign of Christ on Earth, he is the Vicar of Christ, because Jesus said that he was the Small Rock that the Church was built on, whereas Jesus is the Big Rock that is the Cornerstone of the Church.

  The way your interpreting it is making it sound like were saying Peter is God, the BIG ROck..and thats not true of course.

      Hope this helps,

          CatholicAndFanatical

Whoa . . . wait a minute!

Kepha is Aramaic. Its meaning is always rock -- big rock. When translated into Greek, the word is petra. However, to describe Peter the word petros is used, which means small stone. But that's because petra is a feminine noun, while petros is masculine. You can't have a feminine name for a man!

[CatholicAndFanatical]

hey you are right..my bad, I stand corrected.

petra is actually what I was thinking of when I mentioned small rock.

but my main point still holds, were not saying Peter is God because he is the Rock Jesus spoke of. God Being the Big rock, Peter being the smaller version of the Big rock as the Vicar and Visable sign of Christ on earth.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

You can't have a feminine name for a man!

I worked with a guy named Stephen..im sure he'd disagree.. :lol:

[M.SIGGA]

Yes you are right, there is no other God. But God used "rock" as something of his character, and according to Him there is no other Rock.... so why would he make Peter a rock?

Jesus himself changes the name of Simon to Peter and the name Peter actually means "rock." The verse also goes on to say that Jesus also gives Peter the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven - a sign of transmission of authority. He also says the gates of hell will not prevail against him - which is a sign of power and protection from God. The verse ends saying the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

The word "rock" is used symbolically throughout the Bible to represent something that is not swayed or moved or scatered or changed. Since Jesus (God) calls Peter a Rock, it is tremendous symbolism of how the CHurch will represent Gods authority on Earth - not only does Peter get called a Rock, but he also has the keys to God's house, and the authority to repel the snares of the devil.

You are right, but I highly doubt the fact that God is the only God and only Rock is going to change. "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." Hebrews 13:8

By the fact that God calls himself a Rock, shows that he doesn't change. Calling Peter a Rock is a sign of transmission of authority. God the Father lead the Jews through the Old Testement through the major and minor prophets - the people killed them. Jesus, God the Son, came in the New Testement - the people killed him. Before He died, rose, and went back to heaven, however he established His Church to faithfully finish spreading the Gospel to the ends of the Earth - lead and inspired by God the Holy Spirit. The Rock that is God has not changed, but has existed physically leading his people all throughout history.

M.SIGGA i'm sorta confused by what you mean. Lets just say I'm not a highly intellectual person and I'm kinda slow to take things in, would u be able to re-explain what yer point was? Sorry. Thanks.

Lol. I was only trying to show the symbolism of the term Rock in the Bible and it's meaning. Jesus used the parable of the rock and the sand to show that building your faith on the Rock is the only way your soul will weather the storms of life. I hope your read the verse from Daniel I provided - it is the clearest Old Testement prediction of how the Church is a Rock that will topple Babylon and the Roman Empire.

I don't even know the Pope haha so how could i say I don't like him? I'm sure he is a nice lad but I've never met him before. And I don't even know much about his life and what he has done, so how could I even think about forming a judgment?

Lol I was being sarcastic - I have a Baptist friend and this is how he describes a Protestant view of the Pope; he's looks like a nice man who is a good evangelist, but he's no Successor of St. Peter or the Vicar of Christ. I just meant that you do not submit authority to the Pope or the apostolic church.

Lol I'm not trying to convert you or anything and I really hope this helps - I tried my best to explain my point!!!

God Bless :D

[megrc]

from Isaiah 44:8

Do not tremble, do not be afraid.

Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?

You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?

No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.

That was the old covenant, when Jesus came to live among us and proclaimed Peter as the rock, he made a new covenant. If you read the bible and take everything for face value, then your not going to see the changes. God does this several times in the bible.

[God Conquers]

God is the Rock of our Faith, Peter is the Rock of the Church.

[Anna]

Jesus: "Blessed are you Simon BarJonah, for no mere man has revealed this to you, and I say unto you, you are Kepha ("rock") and upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of the netherworld shall not previal against it."

So, whaddya saying here, that Jesus was lying, or perhaps misinterpretting Sacred Scripture? Cuz Simon couldn't be called "Rock"?

Well, He said it!

Kinda hard to argue with Jesus!

Nice to see ya again, freaky.

And coincidentally, Skuba Steve popped in this evening also!

Seems almost like old times...

Pax Christi. <><

[ironmonk]

Hey all, I just wanna hear your thoughts on this, before I even begin to say "you're wrong nyah nyah nyah" and not let you get a chance to 'explain' (donno any better word?)

anyways... you know how you all claim that Peter is the rock, on which Christ built? or whatever, something like that heheh..

what do you think of this verse i read...

from Isaiah 44:8

Do not tremble, do not be afraid.

Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?

You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?

No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.

Freaky,

The Apostles spoke Aramaic. The Gospel of St. Matthew was originally written in Aramaic.

Kephas is Aramaic for "Rock".

St. Matt 16:18 "And so I say to you, you are Peter (Kephas), and upon this rock (Kephas) I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it."

19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Jesus is speaking directly to Peter here, this english version has been translated 3 times... Originally in Aramaic (Kephas = rock)... Then the Greek were we get the different endings of 'Petros', one is masculine and one is feminine... following proper grammer they could not give Peter the feminine and that is why there is a differnence in the Greek to English... An Aramaic to English would read "...you are Rock, and upon this Rock I will build my church..."

Peter's name in Aramaic was Kepha/Cephas as shown in John's Gospel and in Paul's letter to the Cornithians. Aramic is what was spoken and it means Rock.

John 1:42

Then he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon the son of John; you will be called Kephas" (which is translated Peter).

The above information proves that anyone who says that Peter is not the Rock in St. Matt cannot be a teacher of the Word, because they are wrong. One arguement is that Jesus pointed to Himself - Where did they get that? It's not in the bible... someone made it up... to pull true believers out of Christ's Church (Acts 20:30). Also, about the keys... passing of Keys is a passing of authority... If I gave you the keys to my house, you would have the authority to let people in and keep people out... We see that the keys pass authority in the Old Testament (Isaiah 22:19-25).

Then, when we look at what Jesus says to Peter in John... there is no doubt that Peter was the leader... and the rock...

John 21:15

When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs."

16 He then said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep."

17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep."

Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk