Most Gays & Psychologists Agree...

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Jul 14 2005, 08:47 PM']I disagree with your opinion.  Regardless of whether homosexuality is genetic, environmental or both, sexual orientation is not a conscious choice.  It is possible for homosexuals to live chaste lives, and I encourage you to look into Courage and other related ministries for you and your mother.
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Why do you disagree with my opinion? And how do you know it is not a conscious choice?

Edited July 15, 2005 by infinitelord1

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 14 2005, 10:00 PM']im sorry i dont see it as inappropriate at all. Sex is not an innappropriate thing if it is used in its correct context. It is a natural process in which god intended for love.
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Your question might be valid, but it is insensitive and in bad form. It is perfectly all right to talk about sex and sexuality. However, when talking to people it is important to practice the virtue of charity.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Jul 14 2005, 08:49 PM']Your question might be valid, but it is insensitive and in bad form.  It is perfectly all right to talk about sex and sexuality.  However, when talking to people it is important to practice the virtue of charity.
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truth is the only charity i can offer.......truth sets you free.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Jul 14 2005, 08:19 PM']But see, the point is, someone with SSA cant willfully have meaningful feelings for the opposite sex for the purpose of a relationship and marriage, ultimately leading to sex. If they could, then this whole debate about SSA is useless.
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they cant make a choice to have OSA they have to make multiple choices to reach it.

Edited July 15, 2005 by infinitelord1

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 14 2005, 08:48 PM']Why do you disagree with my opinion? And how do you know it is not a conscious choice?
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Because if it was, there would be no need to debate any of this. It would be as simple as choosing not to be gay. But its not that simple.

You can choose not to act on the impulses, and remove yourself from the temptations via celebacy, but you cannot choose to not feel that way.

That has always been the church's view on it, and that is why the actions are sins, but not the feelings. You can, with full consent, choose to be sexually active with someone of the same sex, which is why it is a mortal sin. But you cannot choose how you feel about a certain person or gender, making it not a sin to feel a certain way.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 14 2005, 08:55 PM']they cant make a choice to have OSA they have to make multiple choices to reach it.
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While what you argue is in good nature, you have no proof to back it up.

That is not to say it cant happen via God, but it would not be your own doing, but purely because of God's grace.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Jul 14 2005, 08:58 PM']Because if it was, there would be no need to debate any of this. It would be as simple as choosing not to be gay. But its not that simple.

You can choose not to act on the impulses, and remove yourself from the temptations via celebacy, but you cannot choose to not feel that way.

That has always been the church's view on it, and that is why the actions are sins, but not the feelings. You can, with full consent, choose to be sexually active with someone of the same sex, which is why it is a mortal sin. But you cannot choose how you feel about a certain person or gender, making it not a sin to feel a certain way.
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I know we he been over this before fidei..........you know my stance on free-will and feelings...........thoughts trigger feelings........feelings do not trigger thoughts.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 14 2005, 10:53 PM']truth is the only charity i can offer.......truth sets you free.
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Catholics are called to speak the Truth in Love. And St. Paul says that though we can speak in human OR angelic tongues, if we don't have love, we are nothing.

Edited July 15, 2005 by photosynthesis

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Jul 14 2005, 09:03 PM']Catholics are called to speak the Truth in Love.  And St. Paul says that though we can speak in human OR angelic tongues, if we don't have love, we are nothing.
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good point..........i will emphasize compassion more when i propose a question.......i will try not to be so blunt. I am trying not to be political about all of this........i am simply just throwing what i believe is the truth out there and seeing how people respond.........i like to ask questions and analyze peoples reasoning for why they believe what they believe. If I do not agree I respond with a post on why i disagree.

Edited July 15, 2005 by infinitelord1

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 14 2005, 09:02 PM']I know we he been over this before fidei..........you know my stance on free-will and feelings...........thoughts trigger feelings........feelings do not trigger thoughts.
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Exactly why I am reluctant to get into this again. But this discussion is a good tool for everyone, so why not?

Yes, you are correct in saying that thoughts trigger feelings. If you think of a sexually explicit image, and become aroused because of it, that is triggering feeling because of thought.

Now, that is different than the "feeling" you have towards another person. A simple thought cannot change how you feel, or rather, how you attract to specific persons. You can tell yourself "be attracted to women", but that will not necesarily make it so.

Again, where you are coming from is well intentioned, but by only human ability, it is not possible. You are placing our own free will in a place that it is not appropriate. Overcoming SSA fully can only be accomplished by God, and not by human means. Our free will is not infinite, and can only work within the guidelines that God has for it. If it was intended for our free will to be able to overcome all sinfulness or near occasions of sin, then God would not have allowed us to talk to him, nor would it be necesary.

Free will is always trumped by God's will, if God wills something over what you will.

I must add though, the we must, by our free will, desire to overcome SSA in union with prayer in order for it to be accomplished.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Jul 14 2005, 08:59 PM']While what you argue is in good nature, you have no proof to back it up.

That is not to say it cant happen via God, but it would not be your own doing, but purely because of God's grace.
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i agree i dont........really i am just trying to find proof for myself.........i like hearing other people opinions to see why society today believes in what they believe in.........if i disagree i will explain why. I really just want to help people too and help myself. A lot of times I feel like people reject what i have to say just because of how they feel. I am also like this.........as human beings this is in our nature.......but when it comes down to what is right and wrong........we should try to stray away from what our feelings tell us and give in to the truth.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Jul 14 2005, 09:09 PM']Exactly why I am reluctant to get into this again. But this discussion is a good tool for everyone, so why not?

Yes, you are correct in saying that thoughts trigger feelings. If you think of a sexually explicit image, and become aroused because of it, that is triggering feeling because of thought.

Now, that is different than the "feeling" you have towards another person. A simple thought cannot change how you feel, or rather, how you attract to specific persons. You can tell yourself "be attracted to women", but that will not necesarily make it so.

Again, where you are coming from is well intentioned, but by only human ability, it is not possible. You are placing our own free will in a place that it is not appropriate. Overcoming SSA fully can only be accomplished by God, and not by human means. Our free will is not infinite, and can only work within the guidelines that God has for it. If it was intended for our free will to be able to overcome all sinfulness or near occasions of sin, then God would not have allowed us to talk to him, nor would it be necesary.

Free will is always trumped by God's will, if God wills something over what you will.

I must add though, the we must, by our free will, desire to overcome SSA in union with prayer in order for it to be accomplished.
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I agree with a lot of this............Only throught the belief in god can we overcome SSA completely. But who is to say that it has to stop there? Nobody. Not me, not you, not the church. The church does not condemn homosexuals getting healed by god.......nor does it condemn former homosexuals to get married. Not only is our free-will limited by god but it is also limited by ourselves.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 14 2005, 09:20 PM']I agree with a lot of this............Only throught the belief in god can we overcome SSA completely. But who is to say that it has to stop there? Nobody. Not me, not you, not the church. The church does not condemn homosexuals getting healed by god.......nor does it condemn former homosexuals to get married. Not only is our free-will limited by god but it is also limited by ourselves.
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I agree with all of that.

Im sorry for being unclear. You are correct about the Church not condemning God healing homosexuals. The Church cant limit, and has never done so, God's miracles.

Nor do they condemn marriage between a man and a women, if either had previously had SSA. But their marriage must be for good reason - i.e. true love for one another, intent to start a family. It must not be to "prove" they are not gay anymore.

But those who still suffer from SSA are not meant for marriage, especially if it is an attempt to escape SSA. Marriage is for love of ones spouse and creation of a family, not to try to prove anything.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Jul 14 2005, 09:25 PM']I agree with all of that.

Im sorry for being unclear. You are correct about the Church not condemning God healing homosexuals. The Church cant limit, and has never done so, God's miracles.

Nor do they condemn marriage between a man and a women, if either had previously had SSA. But their marriage must be for good reason - i.e. true love for one another, intent to start a family. It must not be to "prove" they are not gay anymore.

But those who still suffer from SSA are not meant for marriage, especially if it is an attempt to escape SSA. Marriage is for love of ones spouse and creation of a family, not to try to prove anything.
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Well........when you say that those who suffer from SSA are not meant for marriage........i am not sure about this. There are married people out there who live Bi-sexual lifestyles. I think it really boils down to your perception of an OSA. If you have been overshadowed at an early age by SSA then I can see that it would be very hard to experience an OSA. Its like never being taught to make your bed then all of a sudden,at the age of 30 years old, you are told that you need to make your bed every morning after you get up.(this is a very easy task compared to overcoming homosexuality) but i think you get the analogy.

Edited July 15, 2005 by infinitelord1

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 14 2005, 10:38 PM']Well........when you say that those who suffer from SSA are not meant for marriage........i am not sure about this. There are married people out there who live Bi-sexual lifestyles. I think it really boils down to your perception of an OSA. If you have been overshadowed at an early age by SSA then I can see that it would be very hard to experience an OSA. Its like never being taught to make your bed then all of a sudden,at the age of 30 years old, you are told that you need to make your bed every morning after you get up.(this is a very easy task compared to overcoming homosexuality) but i think you get the analogy.
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What it all boils down to is the 3 vocations in life - single life, marriage, or the priesthood. It is God who decides which one you are meant for. If you choose to not follow that path, then that is your loss.

Now, God knows each one of us better than we know ourselves, and he gives us our vocation to both bring us closer to him, and to make us truely happy to serve him. If you choose something other than what he wants, then you are not living to you full potential to know God and to serve him.

Now, If you have SSA, the priesthood is out, unless God really wants you to be a priest, but that is a completely different subject.
Married life is also out because being married is man and women becoming one flesh, and that requires OSA obviously.
The only logical choice you have with SSA is the single life.

God does things that are far above our understanding, but he knows what he is doing, since everything God does is perfect. The only way to true happiness is following his path. For some reason, he allowed you to feel SSA, to bring you closer to him. Suffering is part of this, and that explains why SSA can be so hard to cope with, but in the end, it brings you to God if you rely on God to get through it.

Now, If part of God's plan is to allow you to suffer from SSA, then heal you of it, so be it. But that is not necesarily how it is. He may desire you to live as a single person because he knows you would not be happy as a married person and with a family. He knows what is best for us.

Please dont accuse me of "forcing" celebacy on you. I am not. I am only advising you to what is logical in this situation, based on the limited information I have.

If you are not attracted to women, then you are not attracted to women. You cant force yourself, and if you do, it is not for the right reason. It is only to "not be gay" instead of following exactly what God has layed out for you.