Socrates Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 [quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 13 2005, 03:06 PM']Socrates, you are just another product of the media regardless of your right wing mantras like ' liberal media'. Its funny to note, that the idea of this mantra of yours originates from where? You guessed it, the media itself. And while you seem to foam at the mouth over one percieved bias, you bask in your own media bias sources. Making the world and its information subjective to the core. You are making an assertion that only 'conservative' media reports truthful unbiased information and that 'liberal media', simply reports propaganda to fulfill some sort of global conspiracy. In short, you believe that which supports you currently held idealogies, anything of the contrary cannot be right in your eyes. I truly doubt that if there was a nobel prize won for finding some 'gay gene' that you would accept it. You would just pass it off as a liberal media conspiracy , propaganda and hold on to your radical ideas in the realm of psycology. I don't know what causes homosexuality anymore than what causes heterosexuality. Yet, I do believe that it is somehow intrinsic. Furthermore, what we see in the scientific application of fixing gays by way of psycology is that its has failed. [right][snapback]642254[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Nice ad hominem. Have any facts to add to the debate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 [quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='Jul 13 2005, 03:13 PM'][snip] Our goal is to place God before our "personal sexuality" regardless of how we are wired. [right][snapback]642265[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I think that is one of the best comments I have heard on this subject in over a month! Well said Ash... well said... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchisedec Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 13 2005, 03:13 PM']That still means that 48% of those identical twins in the survey had different orientations. These twins share the same genetics and the same hormonal environment in the womb. This pretty much smashes the theory that homosexuality is completely biologically predetermined. (And also note, unless separated, these twins would share the same upbringing and relate to parents and peers in much the same way) [right][snapback]642266[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Are you familiar with epigenetics? Which shows that genes among twins are expressed differently as they age. Essentially creating unique persons... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 13 2005, 03:13 PM']That still means that 48% of those identical twins in the survey had different orientations. These twins share the same genetics and the same hormonal environment in the womb. This pretty much smashes the theory that homosexuality is completely biologically predetermined. (And also note, unless separated, these twins would share the same upbringing and relate to parents and peers in much the same way) [right][snapback]642266[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I know Soc.... I have yet to meet a liberal to give reply to this argument... and yet the liberals are the ones advancing the statistic. These people hang themselves in their own argumentation almost as much as LittleLes does in one of his own threads... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 13 2005, 03:15 PM']Nice ad hominem. Have any facts to add to the debate? [right][snapback]642270[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 [quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 13 2005, 03:21 PM']Are you familiar with epigenetics? Which shows that genes among twins are expressed differently as they age. Essentially creating unique persons... [right][snapback]642278[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Yes i believe I have heard about it before... I was not impressed. Pray tell... give your link... I'll have another look if you will... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchisedec Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 13 2005, 03:15 PM']Nice ad hominem. Have any facts to add to the debate? [right][snapback]642270[/snapback][/right] [/quote] [i]Conversion rate estimates: Unfortunately, as of 2001-MAY, no study of conversion therapy has been published in a peer-reviewed journal. Those studies that have been conducted have many deficiencies. Often complete data has been withheld. This makes the "conversion rate" impossible to estimate accurately. However, a few studies have uncovered sufficient information by which we may be able to make a very crude estimate of the conversion rate: bullet Exodus International (1978): The ministry selected 30 of their 800 members as having changed from exclusively homosexual to exclusively heterosexual in orientation. Two outside psychiatrists interviewed the 30 and found that only three were actually heterosexual. Subsequent to the study, two of the male founders of Exodus fell in love and were united in a union ceremony. They claimed that the Exodus program was "ineffective...not one person was healed." The conversion rate, based on the study is 3 in 800, on the order of 0.4% bullet Masters and Johnson (1979): This study claimed an impressive conversion rate of 50 to 60% which was maintained for 5 years after treatment. Unfortunately, only five of the 67 participants (7%) began the study with a homosexual orientation. From the available data is quite possible that none of these five converted to heterosexuality. No estimate of the conversion rate can be obtained from this study. bullet NARTH (1997): They studied 860 clients whose data was sent by 200 therapists who were members of the organization. When the subjects entered therapy, 68% identified themselves as totally or almost exclusively homosexual. It is not clear whether this referred to sexual behavior or sexual orientation. The actual percentage of homosexuals was not reported; most of the subjects might have been bisexual. When they left therapy, 33% said they were exclusively or almost entirely heterosexual. Again, it is unclear whether this refers to behavior or orientation. Again, the percentage of heterosexuals is unknown. Unfortunately, 63% of the subjects were still undergoing therapy at the time of the survey. Of greater interest would be the percentage of subjects who entered with a homosexual orientation, converted to bisexuality or heterosexuality, and were able to sustain their sexual orientation for, say, two years following therapy. The NARTH report did not track the results of those clients after therapy. It is possible that none of the subjects who entered therapy with a homosexual orientation was able to change their orientation. No estimate of the conversion rate can be obtained from this study. bullet Schroeder & Shidlo (in progress): This study is aiming at analyzing the experience of 200 people who have undergone conversion therapy. As of late 1997, they had studied 100 subjects. They reported a conversion rate of 0%. bullet OCRT pilot study (2000): The sponsors of this web site surveyed each of the 36 websites of the GayChange WebRing. 3 These are mainly Internet sites created by individuals or small Christian ministries. From the sites' content, all appear to be Evangelical Christian in outlook. Of the 28 accessible web sites, only one reported what they felt were conversion success. They had two clients who entered therapy with a homosexual orientation, and decided during therapy to remain celibate. One entered therapy as a bisexual and has developed a relationship with a person of the opposite sex. Neither actually changed their sexual orientation. The conversion rate of the Christian ministries sampled was 0%. bullet Exodus International (2000): On 2000-JAN-21, the board of directors of the National Association of Social Workers issued a statement which condemned all therapies which attempt to change a person's sexual orientation. Exodus International (EI) offered a rebuttal to that statement. In his rebuttal, Bob Davies, North American director of EI wrote that: bullet Over 250,000 individuals have contacted various EI offices inquiring about a sexual orientation change. This includes "gays, lesbians, family members, friends, counselors and pastors." bullet Thousands of men and women have stopped homosexual behavior. That is, they have decided to become celibate. These are now "in the process of seeking deeper change in their sexual feelings and attractions." Unfortunately, he does not estimate how many of these thousands of clients have actually changed their sexual orientation. On 2001-MAY-14, we Emailed EI asking for additional information. Davies does mention that some "are now happily married and raising children." However he does not give estimates of their number, nor does he indicate how many were entered EI as bisexuals and have remained with that sexual orientation. No estimate of the conversion rate can be obtained from this study. bullet Spitzer (2000): Dr. Robert Spitzer conducted a study of 143 "ex-gays" and 57 "ex-lesbians" who had reported that they had become "straight." In fact, the data shows that few are now heterosexual. He reported that 89% of the men and 63% of the subjects emerged from therapy still having feelings of attraction to persons of the same-sex. 16 (11%) of the men and 21 (37%) of the women report that they now have a heterosexual orientation. Again, it is not known how many entered therapy as bisexuals or as homosexuals. A total of 86 of the 200 subjects were referred to Dr. Spitzer by conservative Christian groups specializing in homosexual ministry; NARTH referred 46 subjects; other sources provided 68. It is apparent that the individuals that Dr. Spitzer interviewed were hand-selected from a very large group of persons who had either a homosexuals or a bisexual orientation. The 46 subjects from NARTH might have been chosen as the most successful patients from as many as 250,000 individuals who entered therapy. Unfortunately, no data has been reported about the total number of persons from whom the 200 carefully selected patients were provided. Assuming that only 100,000 subjects were involved -- a VERY conservative figure, then 37 "success stories" represents a conversion rate of 0.04% Conclusion: From the available data, four studies reported a "success" rate during conversion therapy of 0.4%, 0.0%, 0.0 and 0.04%. [b]That is, conversion therapy has a failure rate in excess of 99.5% during each study.[/b] Considering the anecdotal data which indicates a large percentage of extremely depressed and suicidal clients emerging from conversion therapy, it would appear that this form of therapy is worthless. It my well result in the death by suicide of more gays and lesbians than it "converts" to a heterosexual orientation. Unfortunately, we cannot be certain of this. The quality of the studies is extremely poor. [/i] I've personally have known two indivuals who have done this 'therapy' and they are still homosexuals now. The lack of success of these programs only illustrate their futility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 [quote]I've personally have known two indivuals who have done this 'therapy' and they are still homosexuals now. The lack of success of these programs only illustrate their futility. [/quote] The only fail-proof theraphy is prayer and fasting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchisedec Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 [quote name='Didacus' date='Jul 13 2005, 03:27 PM']Yes i believe I have heard about it before... I was not impressed. Pray tell... give your link... I'll have another look if you will... [right][snapback]642290[/snapback][/right] [/quote] [url="http://news.google.com/news?q=epigenetics&hl=en&hs=BfS&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=N&tab=wn"]epigenetics news[/url] [url="http://www.google.com/search?hs=nz7&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=epigenetics&btnG=Search"]Google results[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 [quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 13 2005, 03:42 PM'][url="http://news.google.com/news?q=epigenetics&hl=en&hs=BfS&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=N&tab=wn"]epigenetics news[/url] [url="http://www.google.com/search?hs=nz7&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=epigenetics&btnG=Search"]Google results[/url] [right][snapback]642315[/snapback][/right] [/quote] This is hilarious, the first sentence I read: [quote]The largest twin study on epigenetic profiles yet reveals the extent to which lifestyle and age can impact gene expression, an international research team reports in this week's PNAS.[/quote] So let me get this straight; lifestyle and age can impact gene expression? Well then, if lifestyle can affect genetics... then EVEN IF A 'GAY GENE' is found, the liberal premise of "genetic cause of homosexuality proves it not to be a choice. Accept us for who we are because we can't change." falls to nothing, since the social factor plays a bigger role in someone's outcome than genetics themselves? I think I remember why I stopped reading up on this subject in the first place.... Also: [quote]Statistical analysis suggested that older twin pairs were more epigenetically different than younger twins.[/quote] So the course of someone's life can affect someone's genetic performance? This turns the table around on liberal groups entirely... it is an argument in favor of convertives... LINK: [url="http://www.the-scientist.com/news/20050707/02"]http://www.the-scientist.com/news/20050707/02[/url] how about a definiton: Epigenetics: A common definition can be: The study of mitotically and/or meiotically heritable changes in gene function that cannot be explained by changes in DNA sequence. Epigenetics may even call for a new definition of GENE which includes sequence information as well as range of possible epigenetic instructions. LINK: [url="http://www.epigenx.com/epigenetics.htm"]http://www.epigenx.com/epigenetics.htm[/url] So the liberals can't find a 'gay gene' so they will will try to redefine genetics. Heard this one before... hmmmm.... oh ya... its called 'gay marriage'... Any liberal argument made on this genetic theory is senseless and can be easily refuted. Sorry buddy... still not impressed... and this line of argumentation is not worth my time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Ditto that - no evidence in there that epigenetics has anything to do with homosexuality. This is at best a hypothesis, and a weak one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 13 2005, 04:02 PM']Ditto that - no evidence in there that epigenetics has anything to do with homosexuality. This is at best a hypothesis, and a weak one. [right][snapback]642345[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Ya, but the real funny thing is that even if it WAS PROVEN... no point is made. See what I mean these people hang themselves? Don't bother replying... I know you do. Well, gotta go for todeay... talk to all phatmassers again tomorrow if I have the time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchisedec Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 [quote name='Didacus' date='Jul 13 2005, 03:59 PM']This is hilarious, the first sentence I read: So let me get this straight; lifestyle and age can impact gene expression? Well then, if lifestyle can affect genetics... then EVEN IF A 'GAY GENE' is found, the liberal premise of "genetic cause of homosexuality proves it not to be a choice. Accept us for who we are because we can't change." falls to nothing, since the social factor plays a bigger role in someone's outcome than genetics themselves? [/quote] Well thats what they are trying to find out. How much of a role does environment play into the expression of genetics. What this shows is that contrary to some claims on here that twins are destined to a deterministic life. That environment and other factors change our makeup to ultimately make unique persons whilsts being seemingly identical. Its funny to see catholics support a materialist worldview. [quote]I think I remember why I stopped reading up on this subject in the first place.... [/quote] Well if it doesnt support your idealogies, you simple toss it as propaganda trash. Instead of an objective analysis of the issue. Ignorance endures because of this. [quote]So the liberals can't find a 'gay gene' so they will will try to redefine genetics. Heard this one before... hmmmm.... oh ya... its called 'gay marriage'... [right][snapback]642339[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Its absolutely funny how everything is so black and white for you. That you will fantasize about some global liberal conspiracy to create sciences that support the homosexual agenda. Oakie doke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted July 14, 2005 Share Posted July 14, 2005 i think it is great that 80% of high school seniors thought that homosexuals should be treated equally......but what is the point.......its almost like he was trying to trick people into thinking that these students were supporters of homosexuality. If I met this Rix guy I would punch him in the face and shove dog carp in his mouth. It makes me wonder if figures like this who tell the public lies are demons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted July 14, 2005 Share Posted July 14, 2005 (edited) oh, mr. melchisedec........hello......excuse me........i wonder if you have a degree in genetics or if you are just buying into this liberal garbage that liberal scientists want you to believe in. After all, most of the scientists who have tried to prove homosexuality as genetic were supporters of homosexuality........this has been done in the past........they fooled people into believing it was genetic at first then when researchers looked further into it the conclusion was so skewed and biased it wasnt even funny. Logically, it appeared more to do with the environment rather than genetics. Edited July 14, 2005 by infinitelord1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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