Muslim attitudes towards the West

[Didacus]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1530343' date='May 16 2008, 11:31 AM'][snip]

Plus, it should go without saying, but we Christians have participated in our share of religious terrorism. Christianity didn't start out that way, which points to the heart of Christianity not being violent, but we've got that stuff in our past nevertheless.[/quote]

But isn't this one of the key points of this thread?

Christianity at its founding heart is all peace, forgiveness and suffering the wrongs of others without providing repercussion (turning the other cheek, he who lives by the sword will die by the sword). When for Islam, at its founding heart had a 'prophet' who waged wars in a manner akin to a warlord.

[mortify]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1530343' date='May 16 2008, 11:31 AM']"Those who are Jews, and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day is good, they shall have their reward from their Lord" (Qu'ran II:62)

What are we supposed to make of this?
Sounds like a bit of contradiction to other passages... I don't know what to make of it.[/quote]

This may be a difficulty for you but it is not a difficulty for Muslims. I knew a Catholic apostate who became Muslims and began studying according to the Shafi school of thought. When I brought that verse to his attention his answer was swift and simple: it was abrogated. The verse is referring to the Christians and Jews that lived prior to Muhammad and/or never heard of the Islamic message. Now keep in mind that Muslims believe what Jesus taught is completely different from what we have always believed, therefore it's questionable how many Christians this verse is referring to. Perhaps a heretic like Arius would be considered in Islamic heaven!

Here is the abrogating verse which illuminates the meaning of the aya in Surah 2:

[color="#FF0000"]If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), [b]never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have los[/b]t (All spiritual good).

How shall Allah Guide those who reject Faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the Messenger was true and that Clear Signs had come unto them? but Allah guides not a people unjust.

Of such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of Allah, of His angels, and of all mankind;

[b]In that will they dwell; nor will their penalty be lightened, nor respite be[/b] (their lot)
[/color]

Surah 3 ayat 85 - 88

You can almost see the mirror opposite in the verse containing "They shall have no fear..."


Folks, it's time to wake up and smell the coffee.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='mortify' post='1530385' date='May 16 2008, 01:27 PM']I think this may seem problematic only to a Catholic, the reality is you don't need a Pope to establish some consistency of belief (just look at the Orthodox.) Nor does it mean that every Islamic doctrine can be questioned and therefore any newer, more moderate doctrine, can be posed as the legitimate teaching.

Sunni Islam has four schools of thought, even though they disagree on some particular issues they more or less agree on the vast majority. Muslims have told me this "majority of agreement" is well into 90% similarity. And these differences amount to where a Muslim should place their hands during prayer, i.e. on their chest or towards there abdomen. I'd like to challenge anyone to show something from the founders of these schools of thought that in anyway undermines the concept of offensive Jihad (that is, Muslims taking the offensive and warring within non-Muslims.) You simply wont find it, any such movement is modern and belongs to liberal Muslims, not to those holding fast to orthodox Islam.

Furthermore, there is the vast body of Islamic literature outside of the Quran: the Hadith, which are the collected sayings of Muhammad, and the collective teaching of the Salifyoon, or the first three generations after Muhammad which carry particular weight in interpretation. Muhammad carried out wars, as did his "rightfully guided" successors, and most certainly engaged in offensive war against non-Muslims.

The Muslims have done very well in preserving their teachings, gathering sources, and establishing sound methods of interpretation. You don't need a Pope when consensus exists and there is no doubt over an established teaching that goes back to Muhammad.[/quote]
Well, I beg to differ. Their religion went into schism with itself sometime after their founder died: there was no more central authority to say who had the right to lead the Islamic people. Some said the leader had to be from Mohomid's (sp?) immediate family, others thought just his tribe. Thus the schism. In addition, the two collective categories of Islam have different understandings of who God is, and both of them have a lot wrong with them (such as one group believing God may do things with no purpose, and another thinks God has a body, but not human).

[mortify]

Addendum to my last post:

From the commentary of Ibn Kathir, a quote from Ibn Abbas regarding the above ayat:

[color="#0000FF"]This statement by Ibn `Abbas indicates that [b]Allah does not accept any deed or work from anyone, unless it conforms to the Law of Muhammad that is, after Allah sent Muhammad[/b] . Before that, every person who followed the guidance of his own Prophet was on the correct path, following the correct guidance and was saved.[/color]

[url="http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=2189"][b][u]Link to the commentary[/u][/b][/url]

Edited May 16, 2008 by mortify

[mortify]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1530458' date='May 16 2008, 12:57 PM']Well, I beg to differ. Their religion went into schism with itself sometime after their founder died: there was no more central authority to say who had the right to lead the Islamic people. Some said the leader had to be from Mohomid's (sp?) immediate family, others thought just his tribe. Thus the schism. In addition, the two collective categories of Islam have different understandings of who God is, and both of them have a lot wrong with them (such as one group believing God may do things with no purpose, and another thinks God has a body, but not human).[/quote]

That is simply not true. The absolute authority carried on after Muhammad through his "four rightly guided" successors, which if I recall correctly goes in this order: Abu bakr, Umar, Uthman, and Ali. Ali himself gave homage to the three Khalifa prior to him so the rejection of them by future Muslims is a moot point. If I'm not mistaken, all of them engaged in offensive Jihad. Umar took the Islamic armies to conquer Coptic Egypt. There is certainly more information if one chooses to find it but I'm only mentioning what I recall from memory. No Sunni or Shia if they believe and practice their religion will say these men committed a sin when they engaged in Jihad and imposed jizya on the non-Muslim population.

The Shia and the Sunni both accept Jihad, some Shia even raise it to be a pillar of Islam. The particular theological differences about God that may distinguish them can't be used to deny the vast similarity between the two, including the concept of jihad.

[Didacus]

[quote name='mortify' post='1530479' date='May 16 2008, 01:09 PM'][snip]
No Sunni or Shia if they believe and practice their religion will say these men committed a sin when they engaged in Jihad and imposed jizya on the non-Muslim population.

[snip][/quote]

And does this imposition seem just and peaceful to you?

Waging war to spread your religion?

Forcing others to accept it under penalty of death? Iran is TODAY considering a law giving the death penalty to anyone who converts to christianity.

[Madame Vengier]

The Myth of Moderate Muslims:
[url="http://talkinjihadblues.wordpress.com/2008/05/16/the-myth-of-moderate-muslims/"]http://talkinjihadblues.wordpress.com/2008...derate-muslims/[/url]

"What I fear most is that, when we look back in 25 years’ time at this moment, what we will have seen is the surrender of the West, without a shot being fired. They’ll say that in the name of tolerance and acceptance, we tied our own hands and slit our own throats." -- Salman Rushdie

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Didacus' post='1530427' date='May 16 2008, 02:44 PM']But isn't this one of the key points of this thread?

Christianity at its founding heart is all peace, forgiveness and suffering the wrongs of others without providing repercussion (turning the other cheek, he who lives by the sword will die by the sword). When for Islam, at its founding heart had a 'prophet' who waged wars in a manner akin to a warlord.[/quote]

I haven't seen anyone make this point, but maybe it was. Most of what I saw was links to videos of extremist Muslims, as if I give a rip.

So, I get the whole "Mohammad = bad; Jesus = good" thing, but what's the application to our lives? Should we be doing anything different than what we should already be doing as Christians?

[Socrates]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1530343' date='May 16 2008, 11:31 AM']You say that because you understand Catholicism. People who don't can be easily taken in by the arguments of groups like Catholics for a Free Choice and the examples set by Catholic politicians and bishops. The point being, I don't want to buy into any particular interpretation of the Qu'ran without (at the least) an educated opinion from both sides.[/quote]
The Church has clearly and firmly denounced these groups who [i]dissent[/i] from the true (and original) Church teaching. It is clear what the orthodox Church teaching is, and that those who oppose it are dissenters.

Of course, as I've pointed out, there is no single unified Muslim teaching authority. However, where is the [quote]equivalent strong, firm and unambiguous denunciation by "mainstream Islam" of acts of Islamic violence by the "extremists"?

True.
[url="http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=266036"]This[/url] looks like a good start.

From that link, you can get this quote, among others:
"Those who are Jews, and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day is good, they shall have their reward from their Lord" (Qu'ran II:62)[/quote]
I think Mortify gave a pretty good answer.

Muslims view Christians and Jews ("People of the Book") much as we view the Old Testament Jews. They teach that Christ taught the coming of Mohamed. Christians are only to be punished when they have been preached Islam and refuse to accept it.

[quote]What are we supposed to make of this?
Sounds like a bit of contradiction to other passages... I don't know what to make of it.[/quote]
Well conquering Muslims through over 1300 years have had no trouble knowing what to make of it - they fought the Christians and Jews into submission and taxed them.

[quote]I know I don't have much of an argument. My whole point is that there's more to interpreting the Qu'ran than I know about, which is why I'm not just going to dive in head first with what you say without at least hearing the "Islam is peaceful" argument. If what you're saying is true, then you should be able to produce the opposing argument and explain why it's wrong.[/quote]
I've yet to see a convincing argument.

[quote]Can you explain why it is tripe? Snoop Dogg, Shaq, Eminem, and the multitudes of organized crime bosses in the world are also filthy rich. There's more to the psychology of what drives people to violence and using whatever is at their disposal (could be religion, drugs, computer hacking, prostitution, alcohol, or a lot of other things) that how much wealth one might have accumulated. The countries that are breeding grounds for Islamic extremism are also some of the poorest countries in the world. That's a simple fact, and not a coincidence.[/quote]
Oh, is it? As I've pointed out, many of the world's most "extreme" Muslims are from oil-rich Saudi Arabia, one of the world's richest countries (if not [i]the[/i] richest - I'd have to check the stats). This is a country where it is illegal to so much as build a church.
That's a simple fact (though I'll leave it to you to decide whether or not it is a coincidence.) In any case, it pretty much demolishes your "Islamic extremism is caused by poverty" argument.

[quote]Basically, if you grow up with opportunities to be legitimately successful, you are far less likely to turn a life of violence. After all, we all have a conscience which tells us violence is wrong and attempts to steer us towards peace.[/quote]
I suppose billionaires like Osama and co. didn't grow up with "opportunities to be legitimately successful." The facts are simply not on your side.

[quote]Plus, it should go without saying, but we Christians have participated in our share of religious terrorism. Christianity didn't start out that way, which points to the heart of Christianity not being violent, but we've got that stuff in our past nevertheless.[/quote]
Considering that the vast majority of religious-related terrorist acts have been committed by Muslims, not Christians, the facts are not on your side here either.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1534288' date='May 19 2008, 10:09 PM']Considering that the vast majority of religious-related terrorist acts have been committed by Muslims, not Christians, the facts are not on your side here either.[/quote]

Over 10,000 (and counting!) terrorist attacks world-wide since Sept. 11, 2001.

[url="http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/"]http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/[/url]

It is the single greatest threat to world peace, freedom and equality, the constitutionality of legitimate sovereign nations, international stability, and democracy presently known to life on earth. Oh yeah, and pigs. Islam is a threat to pigs everywhere.

But hey, don't worry! Not all Muslims are like that! We can breathe easy with the knowledge that only approx. 300 million of them want to kill us all or have us subjugated to sharia. Doesn't that number make his feel safe already? I mean, 300 million....such a small number!

[Didacus]

There is no doubt it will take generations before any real and sustainable peace can be attained. But the path to such peace can begin with our own generation.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Didacus' post='1534542' date='May 20 2008, 07:57 AM']There is no doubt it will take generations before any real and sustainable peace can be attained. But the path to such peace can begin with our own generation.[/quote]

They don't WANT peace. They want total submission. Period. The normal methods of diplomacy don't apply here.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1534288' date='May 20 2008, 12:09 AM']The Church has clearly and firmly denounced these groups who [i]dissent[/i] from the true (and original) Church teaching. It is clear what the orthodox Church teaching is, and that those who oppose it are dissenters.[/quote]

I'm well aware of that, but if we weren't Catholic, we probably wouldn't have a clue. All I'm saying is the existence of extremist Islam doesn't mean Islam is itself in favor of violence any more than the existence of Catholics for a Free Choice means Catholicism is itself in favor of contraception and gay marriage. Instead of looking at the opinions that are out there, we need to look at the religion itself.

[quote name='Socrates' post='1534288' date='May 20 2008, 12:09 AM']Well conquering Muslims through over 1300 years have had no trouble knowing what to make of it - they fought the Christians and Jews into submission and taxed them.[/quote]

Our record with Jews, the Orthodox, Protestants, and natives in the Americas isn't a whole lot better. Why are we allowed to ignore rapes and murders at the hands of Christians (even against other Christians) while we attack Muslims for the same sins?

[quote name='Socrates' post='1534288' date='May 20 2008, 12:09 AM']I've yet to see a convincing argument.[/quote]

Ditto ;-) You've come here to say we need to take a stand against Islam and do something about it. I agree that Islam doesn't teach the truth. I agree that Islam is prone to terrorism (though it's one of several contributing factors). What are we supposed to do about it?

[quote name='Socrates' post='1534288' date='May 20 2008, 12:09 AM']Oh, is it? As I've pointed out, many of the world's most "extreme" Muslims are from oil-rich Saudi Arabia, one of the world's richest countries (if not [i]the[/i] richest - I'd have to check the stats). This is a country where it is illegal to so much as build a church.[/quote]

What makes you think Saudi Arabia is one of the world's richest countries?

Let's look at GDP per capita from the [url="https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/index.html"]CIA World Factbook[/url] for some countries that are know to harbor terrorists and are generally uncooperative with the West in fighting terrorism:

Saudi Arabia: $20,700
Iran: $12,300
Egypt: $5,400
Syria: $4,300
Iraq: $3,600
Pakistan: $2,600
Sudan: $2,500
Afghanistan: $1,000

And some countries that are relatively peaceful and cooperative with the West:

Qatar: $75,900
Kuwait: $55,300
United Arab Emirates: $55,200
Turkey: $9,400

For sake of comparison:
United States: $46,000

Keep in mind, however, that these stats can be misleading due to the incredibly disproportionate amount of wealth held by the leaders of most countries whose economies relies so much on a natural resource. Contrary to our perception, the vast majority of Arabs are far poorer than our own poor. After all, you can make more than Turkey's GDP per capita just working full-time at McDonald's. So, it's safe to say that that standard of living for most citizens of Kuwait, Qatar, and the UAE is probably not as high as most Americans.

FWIW, these three are are among the [url="https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html"]world's ten richest countries[/url]. Luxembourg is the richest.

[quote name='Socrates' post='1534288' date='May 20 2008, 12:09 AM']I suppose billionaires like Osama and co. didn't grow up with "opportunities to be legitimately successful." The facts are simply not on your side.[/quote]

Did Osama grow up in a rich family? I really don't know. What I'd like to see is evidence that says middle class Muslims are just as likely to become terrorists as the poor or the very few rich.

[quote name='Socrates' post='1534288' date='May 20 2008, 12:09 AM']Considering that the vast majority of religious-related terrorist acts have been committed by Muslims, not Christians, the facts are not on your side here either.[/quote]

Are we talking about all the last 2,000 years or only current day? Christian terrorism is out there. Here's a whole list of Christian terrorist groups [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism"]on wikipedia[/url] operating in the U.S., Canada, Burma, Uganda, Northern Ireland, Yugoslavia, India, Lebanon, and Russia (the article is apparently pretty biased, but I'm only using it as a source stating the existence of these groups).

Still, in the end, we're still faced with the question of what to do about Islam.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1535801' date='May 21 2008, 12:49 AM']Are we talking about all the last 2,000 years or only current day? Christian terrorism is out there. Here's a whole list of Christian terrorist groups [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism"]on wikipedia[/url] operating in the U.S., Canada, Burma, Uganda, Northern Ireland, Yugoslavia, India, Lebanon, and Russia (the article is apparently pretty biased, but I'm only using it as a source stating the existence of these groups).

Still, in the end, we're still faced with the question of what to do about Islam.[/quote]


Islam hasn't existed for 2,000 years.

And as long as people like you continue to deflect criticism of Islamic activity with comments like "There are Christian terrorists, too" then NOTHING will be done about Islam.

It's incredible to me that you continue to reject Islam as a religion but yet continue to make light of their bloodshed all over the world.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1534519' date='May 20 2008, 08:57 AM']Over 10,000 (and counting!) terrorist attacks world-wide since Sept. 11, 2001.

[url="http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/"]http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/[/url]

It is the single greatest threat to world peace, freedom and equality, the constitutionality of legitimate sovereign nations, international stability, and democracy presently known to life on earth. Oh yeah, and pigs. Islam is a threat to pigs everywhere.

But hey, don't worry! Not all Muslims are like that! We can breathe easy with the knowledge that only approx. 300 million of them want to kill us all or have us subjugated to sharia. Doesn't that number make his feel safe already? I mean, 300 million....such a small number![/quote]

Where does the 300 million number come from?

And why should I trust a web site that is obviously strongly biased against Islam?