Muslim attitudes towards the West

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='Jul 23 2005, 01:59 PM']So? How many British Muslims have you asked?
[right][snapback]655802[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
as a Catholic you should understand that there is the difference between the reality of the religion and the liberalized versions of it.

liberalized versions of islam are not what Apo is discussing, he is discussing the core of Islam, their equivalent to early church fathers, their equivalent to doctrine and dogma, their equivalent to scriptures, et cetera.

[Noel's angel]

I was simply saying that most British Muslims don't think like the way some people on here are making out. There was a survey done in a British paper today, thats where my info is from. I don't claim to know anything about Islam, but I'm just saying that the opinion of most British Muslims is different than that being presented here

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='Jul 23 2005, 10:59 AM']don't expect me to be impressed...
[right][snapback]655803[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
I'm not asking you to be impressed. I am asking you to be informed. Based upon your comments to date, it appears to me that you are simply spouting comments off the top of your head.

Ignorance is not bliss.

[Aloysius]

I don't think they were talking specifically about British Muslims... however:

that would be the equivalent in a discussion of Catholocism of saying "Catholocism forbids birth control" and then saying "well how many American Catholics have you asked about that?" or "according to this american catholic poll..."

Apo is more concerned with the actual nature of the religion... that it is fundamentalist in nature and that to be non-fundamentalist you would actually be on the fringe of islam not the core.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='Jul 23 2005, 11:02 AM']I was simply saying that most British Muslims don't think like the way some people on here are making out.  There was a survey done in a British paper today, thats where my info is from.  I don't claim to know anything about Islam, but I'm just saying that the opinion of most British Muslims is different than that being presented here
[right][snapback]655807[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Nice generalization without any supporting evidence. How much do you know about the Muslim religion? What are some of its theological doctrines? Define the theological term "ijaz al qu'ran," explaining how it relates to the Qu'ran and how is it understood by a Sunni Muslim as opposed to a Shia? Describe how Ibn Hanbal was important in the development of this doctrine during the 9th century.

[Apotheoun]

In Islamic theology what is an "isnad," and how does it relate to the Hadith?

[Aloysius]

in Noel's Angel's defence, she is probably not incorrect about British Muslims specifically and was using for her info a survey done by a British Newspaper (not that surveys are always accurate, but she had a fairly reliable source). Although I am sure anyone who DID feel that way would probably avoid answering the survey question or lie about it, I still don't doubt the idea that the majority of british muslims don't believe that.

It'd be like saying the majority of American Catholics don't believe that birth control is evil, though.

anyway, okay Apo, we get it. enough. you know more about islamic theology than Noel does. you know more about it than I do. I don't know about musturde, maybe maybe not... musturde probably knows more than me or noel but less than you.

[Apotheoun]

My concern is that Westerners know absolutely nothing about the theology of Islam or its history, and then they like to think that Islam is just like a Protestant denomination, well it is not. Muslims are not Methodists.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 23 2005, 11:13 AM']anyway, okay Apo, we get it.  enough.  you know more about islamic theology than Noel does.  you know more about it than I do.  I don't know about musturde, maybe maybe not... musturde probably knows more than me or noel but less than you.
[right][snapback]655818[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
My point is, that she, and everyone in the West, should study the Islamic religion and not simply pretend that it's a benign religion like the Quakers.



By the way, a good book to read on how the Islamic religion treats Christians is called, "The Great Church in Captivity."

P.S. - the book also gives some interesting information on the theology of the Eastern Church.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='Jul 23 2005, 01:46 PM']ok, well it isn't the feelings of the majority of British Muslims
[right][snapback]655781[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Did you read the piece from English pollsters?
25% is a lot of people.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 23 2005, 02:13 PM']in Noel's Angel's defence, she is probably not incorrect about British Muslims specifically and was using for her info a survey done by a British Newspaper (not that surveys are always accurate, but she had a fairly reliable source).  Although I am sure anyone who DID feel that way would probably avoid answering the survey question or lie about it, I still don't doubt the idea that the majority of british muslims don't believe that.
[right][snapback]655818[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

I posted the entire article, its not very encouraging when 25% of a population has sympathy for the BOMBERS, and 6% totally supports them. That 6% works out to be around 100,000 people.

To pretend there is a not a leopard in the same room with you is very blind indeed.

[Aloysius]

woah... I missed that stat... that's alot

she's right that it's not a MAJORITY... but still... 25%?????? holy carp! that's scary.

[LSW]

These extremists are pissed of that Islam is not the dominant religion in the world and they will do anything they can to change that. They want to take over plain and simple. They come up with these rediculous conspiracy theories to make it look like they are the victims and that their murderous actions are justified. Remember when al-Zarqawi wrote a letter threatening the Vatican shortly after the funeral of JP2? He was ticked off because so much attention was being paid to a religion other than Islam. You see the only way they can bring attention to their faith is by slamming airliners into buildings and blowing people up.

Also, all this talk about the extremists being a minority is a little misleading. Its estimated that 10% of the 1 billion muslims are extremists. That translates to 100 million people. They may be a minority, but they are a very large, power and dangerous minority.

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='Luthien' date='Jul 23 2005, 06:09 AM']Why do they hate us so much?
[right][snapback]655566[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
I tend to lean toward the view that it is a spiritual thing. That which is of God verses that which is not of God but manipulated by satanic lies worked in areas with poorer people to foster extremist hate among them and convince the richer or more powerful that this is acceptable. I think it was the gulf war or something where US soldiers were not allowed to bring their Bibles with then to Saudi Arabia.

My mom was reading a USA Today article recently that noted that the west's attitudes towards Islam is a lot more tolerant than the Islamic world's attitudes towards the west.

Edited July 23, 2005 by Light and Truth

[musturde]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 23 2005, 12:49 PM']As someone who is studying Islam I'm sure you know that private interpretations of the Qu'ran are irrelevant. You must subscribe to the igma of the Ulema. Which of the School of Jurisprudence are you studying in? Have you read any of the theological writings of Al-Ashari, or Al-Ghazali, or of Ibn Hanbal? What is your opinion of Al-Ashari's doctrine of the acquisition of acts? have you read any of Ibn Hanbal's writings against the Mu'tazilites? What parts of the Sahih Al-Bukhari or the Sahih Al-Muslim have you read? Have you studied the development of their theology as the debated with the clerics of the Eastern Orthodox Church? Have you studied how they persecuted the Christian faith everyone they went?
[right][snapback]655786[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

lol I already know how they persecuted/persecute. It's not like they're being happy go lucky in lebanon. Don't forget that the Christians also persecuted groups including muslims. However, I know that in lebanon not all of them are extremists. It's just a western stereotype that all muslims are extremists. There are different muslims sects and some of them do not take the koran that literal. You're listing extremist writings. I could go listing Protestant extremist authors to you.