Muslim attitudes towards the West

[Apotheoun]

What the West fails to realize is that the vast majority of people in the Muslim world are what our media calls "fundamentalists." Our media itself constantly tells us that only a small minority of people in the Muslim world are Islamic fundamentalists, but the opposite is actually the case. The ruling elites in many of the Muslim countries are "westernized," but they normally represent less than 5% of the population. That's why the Madrasa schools are so popular.

[musturde]

I posted this a while back but no one looked lol. hassim Nasrallah (my hero) is somewhere on there too defending himself against america.

[musturde]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 23 2005, 03:04 AM']What the West fails to realize is that the vast majority of people in the Muslim world are what our media calls "fundamentalists."  Our media itself constantly tells us that only a small minority of people in the Muslim world are Islamic fundamentalists, but the opposite is actually the case.  The ruling elites in many of the Muslim countries are "westernized," but they normally represent less than 5% of the population.  That's why the Madrasa schools are so popular.
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I guess it depends on where you live. I believe that some muslims use the koran to gain power such as Osama and are themselves not dedicated. If Osama was a dedicated fanatic, he would have been a suicide bomber and had died already.

[Laudate_Dominum]

yeah, according to them the US knew about the tsumani a while back and commited "passive murder" by not warning all the muslims that were killed.
This is insane.
And let's say nothing of the fact that Americans and Christians did far more to help muslims in the aftermath of the tsunami then the muslim community did. Too busy spending money to arm brainwashed 14 year old suicide bombers and the like.

And appearantly we need to have our throats cut and our skulls crushed, according to another Saudi tv show. Perhaps this is because "Jews and Christians lie when they say God loves them".

Oh, and according to Iranian tv, "the English government may have caused the London bombings, just like the American government may have caused 9/11". Yeah right.. all the west cares about is blowing itself up as an excuse to annihilate the world of Islam. What idiots.

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Jul 23 2005, 03:19 AM']yeah, according to them the US knew about the tsumani a while back and commited "passive murder" by not warning all the muslims that were killed.
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No kitten! So did we tell all the Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and Swedes to head for high land? ...

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='musturde' date='Jul 23 2005, 01:16 AM']I guess it depends on where you live. I believe that some muslims use the koran to gain power such as Osama and are themselves not dedicated. If Osama was a dedicated fanatic, he would have been a suicide bomber and had died already.
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I have studied Islamic theology, and sad to say it is fundamentalist in the extreme.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Some interesting headlines:

Global Zionism Is Behind London Bombings and 9/11 and Has Been Forging Holy Books Since the Protocols of the Elders of Zion

Head of London Center for Islamic History Hani Siba'i: In Islam, There Are No Such Things as Civilians; Al-Qaeda "rubbed the noses of the world's eight most powerful countries in the mud"

Tehran Sermon: The US and Israel are the Father and Mother of Al-Qaeda; The Preacher Condemns London Attacks and the Crowd Cheers "Death to England"

United Arab Emirates Friday Sermon: Igniting Civil Strife is the Habit of Jews and Christians, not Muslims

Terror in London (3): Chairman of Egyptian Parliament Foreign Relations Committee, Mustafa Fiqi and Egyptian General Ahmad Abd Al-Halim on Jews, Christians and Other Groups that May Be Responsible

Editor-in-Chief of Al-Quds Al-Arabi, Abd Al-Bari Atwan: The Explosions a Good Slap for Tony Blair; More Bombings are Possible in Washington and New York

America Is the New Nazism; Britain and America Have Destroyed the World

Oh Allah, Punish the Occupying Zionists and Their Supporters from among the Corrupt Infidels

Iraqi Shiite Cleric As'ad Qasir: The US Is Our Number One Enemy

According to Our Definition, Any Act or Thought that Contradicts the Koran and Sunna Is Terrorism

Allah Has Gathered the Jews in Israel to Make It Easier for Muslims to Fight Them on Judgment Day

New York Imam Ahmad Dwidar: In 1995, I Heard Sermons Calling on Muslims to March on the White House and Turn It into the Muslim House

Bahraini Cleric Abdullah Latif Aal Mahmoud on the Rules of Wife Beatings in Islam

The "Lions of Islam" around Jerusalem Should Not Abandon Their Jihad

Ayatollah Jannati at a Tehran Friday Sermon: By Voting You Will Be Shouting a Gigantic "Death to America"

The Womb of the Palestinian Woman - A Factory that Produces Fighting Children

[RandomProddy]

The fallacy is that attacking London is simply attacking England/Britain/UK: London is the most cosmopolitan city in the world.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='RandomProddy' date='Jul 23 2005, 05:51 AM']The fallacy is that attacking London is simply attacking England/Britain/UK: London is the most cosmopolitan city in the world.
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The people who made these statements are obviously morons. I'm sure there are plenty of muslims in the world who would be sickened by this stuff.

The scary part is that this stuff is from the mainstream tv in countries such as Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Iran.

[Luthien]

Why do they hate us so much?

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Luthien' date='Jul 23 2005, 07:09 AM']Why do they hate us so much?
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I wonder that myself.. I think it's just all the propaganda. Their media seems totally off its rocker. I thought we were bad.
This might be a bit mean, I don't like nazi examples, but a lot of it seems like nazi propaganda against the Jews.

And there are things about our country that don't look very good from the outside. But still.. it shouldn't be like this.. it's crazy.

[Luthien]

I know this sounds a little cheesy, but if people could just love a little more, this world would be so much more beautiful...

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Luthien' date='Jul 23 2005, 07:29 AM']I know this sounds a little cheesy, but if people could just love a little more, this world would be so much more beautiful...
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It's totally true.. One day in the debate I felt like just posting "love is the answer" to everything. hehe

[cmotherofpirl]

Two articles today from DrudgeReport:


One in four Muslims sympathises with motives of terrorists
By Anthony King
(Filed: 23/07/2005)

The group portrait of British Muslims painted by YouGov's survey for The Daily Telegraph is at once reassuring and disturbing, in some ways even alarming.

The vast majority of British Muslims condemn the London bombings but a substantial minority are clearly alienated from modern British society and some are prepared to justify terrorist acts.


Click to enlarge
The divisions within the Muslim community go deep. Muslims are divided over the morality of the London bombings, over the extent of their loyalty to this country and over how Muslims should respond to recent events.

Most Muslims are evidently moderate and law-abiding but by no means all are.

YouGov sought to gauge the character of the Muslim community's response to the events of July 7. As the figures in the chart show, 88 per cent of British Muslims clearly have no intention of trying to justify the bus and Tube murders.

However, six per cent insist that the bombings were, on the contrary, fully justified.

Six per cent may seem a small proportion but in absolute numbers it amounts to about 100,000 individuals who, if not prepared to carry out terrorist acts, are ready to support those who do.

Moreover, the proportion of YouGov's respondents who, while not condoning the London attacks, have some sympathy with the feelings and motives of those who carried them out is considerably larger - 24 per cent.

A substantial majority, 56 per cent, say that, whether or not they sympathise with the bombers, they can at least understand why some people might want to behave in this way.

YouGov also asked whether or not its Muslim respondents agreed or disagreed with Tony Blair's description of the ideas and ideology of the London bombers as "perverted and poisonous".

Again, while a large majority, 58 per cent, agree with him, a substantial minority, 26 per cent, are reluctant to be so dismissive.

The responses indicate that Muslim men are more likely than Muslim women to be alienated from the mainstream and that the young are more likely to be similarly alienated than the old.

However, there are few signs in YouGov's findings that Muslims of Pakistani and Bangladeshi origin are any more disaffected than their co-religionists from elsewhere.

The sheer scale of Muslim alienation from British society that the survey reveals is remarkable. Although a large majority of British Muslims are more than content to make their home in this country, a significant minority are not.

For example, YouGov asked respondents how loyal they feel towards Britain. As the figures in the chart show, the great majority say they feel "very loyal" (46 per cent) or "fairly loyal" (33 per cent) but nearly one British Muslim in five, 18 per cent, feels little loyalty towards this country or none at all.

If these findings are accurate, and they probably are, well over 100,000 British Muslims feel no loyalty whatsoever towards this country.

The proportion of men who say they feel no loyalty to Britain is more than three times the proportion of women saying the same.

Equally remarkable are YouGov's findings concerning many Muslims' attitudes towards Western society and culture.

YouGov asked respondents how they feel about Western society and how, if at all, they feel Muslims should adapt to it. A majority, 56 per cent, believe "Western society may not be perfect but Muslims should live with it and not seek to bring it to an end".

However, nearly a third of British Muslims, 32 per cent, are far more censorious, believing that "Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to bring it to an end".

Among those who hold this view, almost all go on to say that Muslims should only seek to bring about change by non-violent means but one per cent, about 16,000 individuals, declare themselves willing, possibly even eager, to embrace violence.

Yet again, far more men than women and far more young people than their elders evince this kind of hostility towards the world around them. In addition, tens of thousands of Muslims view the whole of Britain's political establishment with suspicion.

More than half of those interviewed, 52 per cent, believe "British political leaders don't mean it when they talk about equality. They regard the lives of white British people as more valuable than the lives of British Muslims".

Almost as many, 50 per cent, reckon the main party leaders are not being sincere when they say they respect Islam and want to co-operate with Britain's Muslim communities.

Despite Tony Blair's well-publicised efforts to reach out to Muslims, fewer than half of those interviewed, 42 per cent, approve of the way he has handled Britain's response to the July 7 events.

Many British Muslims are probably reluctant to give Mr Blair credit for anything at all following his complicity with America, as they see it, in launching the invasion of Iraq. Just more than half, 52 per cent, are impressed by the performance since the bombings of Sir Iqbal Sacranie, secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Great Britain. Some Muslims' discontent with Britain clearly extends to discontent with the existing moderate and pro-British Muslim leadership.


A cloud of suspicion also hangs over Britain's judicial system.

YouGov asked its Muslim respondents whether or not they thought anyone charged and taken to court in connection with the July 7 attacks would receive a fair trial. Only 37 per cent said yes. The rest reckon he or she would not or were doubtful that they would.

Despite these widespread doubts, a large majority of Britain's Muslims clearly believe the time has come when Muslims must shoulder their share of the responsibility for preventing and punishing terrorist crimes such as those in London.

As the figures in the chart show, roughly a third of Muslims reckon they should assume "a great deal" of the responsibility and another third reckon they should assume at least "some" of it.

Even more impressive in some ways is the fact that large numbers now say they are prepared to put their mouth where their feelings are.

As the figures in the chart show, almost three quarters of British Mulsims, 73 per cent, say they would inform the police if they believed that someone they knew or knew of might be planning a terrorist attack.

Nearly half, 47 per cent, say they would also go to the police if they believed an imam or other religious person was trying to radicalise young Muslims by preaching hatred against the West.

Not only that but 70 per cent of Muslims reckon they have a duty to go to the police if they "see something in the community that makes them feel suspicious".

Taken as a whole, the findings of YouGov's survey suggest that, although large numbers of British Muslims dislike British society and in some cases may be tempted to attack it, the great majority are loyal and law-abiding and are unlikely to provide the radicals with moral support, let alone safe havens.

YouGov interviewed 526 Muslim adults across Great Britain online between July 15 and yesterday. The data were weighted to reflect the composition of Britain's Muslim population by gender, age and country of birth.

YouGov abides by the rules of the British Polling Council.


Anthony King is professor of government at Essex University

washingtonpost.com
Attacks on UK will continue, radical cleric says

By Gideon Long
Reuters
Friday, July 22, 2005; 10:57 AM



LONDON (Reuters) - Militant Islamists will continue to attack Britain until the government pulls its troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan, one of the country's most outspoken Islamic clerics said on Friday.

Speaking 15 days after bombers killed over 50 people in London and a day after a series of failed attacks on the city's transport network, Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed said the British capital should expect more violence.

"What happened yesterday confirmed that as long as the cause and the root problem is still there ... we will see the same effect we saw on July 7," Bakri said.

"If the cause is still there the effect will happen again and again," he said, adding he had no information about future attacks or contacts with people planning to carry out attacks.

Bakri, a Syrian-born cleric who has been vilified in Britain since 2001 when he praised the September 11 hijackers, said he did not believe the bombings and attempted attacks on London were carried out by British Muslims.

He condemned the killing of all innocent civilians but described attacks on British and U.S. troops in Muslim countries as "pro-life" and justified.

In an interview with Reuters, Bakri described Osama bin Laden, leader of the radical Islamist network al Qaeda, as "a sincere man who fights against evil forces."

Bakri said he would like Britain to become an Islamic state but feared he would be deported before his dream was realized.

"I would like to see the Islamic flag fly, not only over number 10 Downing Street, but over the whole world," he said.

MESSAGE OF PEACE ... MESSAGE OF WAR

A hate figure for the British tabloid press, the bearded and bespectacled Bakri said Islam contained "a message of peace for those who want to live with the Muslims in peace."

"But Islam is a message of war for those who declare war against Muslims," he said.

"I condemn any killing and any bombing against any innocent people in Britain or abroad, but I expect the British people to condemn the killing of Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan."

However, asked about Islamist attacks on British and U.S. troops and on Israelis, he said: "If violence is pro-life I don't condemn it."

Britain has around 1,100 troops in Afghanistan and 8,500 in Iraq. Prime Minister Tony Blair supported the United States in its respective invasions of both countries in 2001 and 2003.

Bakri, a 46-year-old father of six, was born in Syria and lived in Lebanon and Saudi Arabia. When the Saudi government expelled him in 1985 he came to London.

Nicknamed "The Tottenham Ayatollah" after the area of north London in which he lives, he has infuriated many Britons with his firebrand speeches and refusal to condemn suicide bombings.

He founded the British branch of Hizb ut-Tahrir, which describes itself as a non-violent political party dedicated to creating an Islamic caliphate centered on the Middle East.

But he split from the group in 1996 and set up al Muhajiroun, which won notoriety in 2001 for celebrating the attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon which killed nearly 3,000 people.

Bakri has Syrian and Lebanese citizenship and says he thinks the British government might deport him to one of those two countries in the wake of this month's bombings.

"But I think that would be political suicide for the British government if they started to deport and imprison all extremists and radicals," he said.

"Because if, God forbid, something happened again, they would have nobody left to blame."

© 2005 Reuters

[Pio Nono]

JMJ
7/23 - St. Apollinaris of Ravenna

A good book to read about this is [i]Occidentalism[/i], though I forget the author's name off-hand. Also, [i]The Crisis of Islam[/i] traces the development of the hatred of modern culture in the Islamic world from the early 20th century. Very interesting.