Muslim attitudes towards the West

[mortify]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1313897450' post='2292407']
Even if this is true, Islam has rather detailed rules on how to wage war. Killing innocents is not a valid way of waging war in Islamic law.[/quote]

But who is an innocent? Ibn Taymiyya, a classical Islamic scholar argued that civilians are not innocent since their taxes fund armies that fight Muslims.

[quote]The vast majority of Islamic scholars do not say it is permissable. And that a few people support suicide bombing does not overturn the majority opinion. Islam is one of those religions where it is least acceptable to do things to justify the ends. It's very legalistic, much like Orthodox Judaism.
[/quote]

Islamic morality is based on intention, no doubt about this. I dont doubt you will find Westernized scholars who will speak against suicide bombing, but is this the major view in the islamic world? No.

[Kia ora]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1313897876' post='2292413']

But who is an innocent? Ibn Taymiyya, a classical Islamic scholar argued that civilians are not innocent since their taxes fund armies that fight Muslims.[/quote] I'm sure you can show me the reference for this claim.

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1313897876' post='2292413']
Islamic morality is based on intention, no doubt about this. I dont doubt you will find Westernized scholars who will speak against suicide bombing, but is this the major view in the islamic world? No.
[/quote]

Sunni Islam is not like Catholicism, it has no Magisterium and no official opinions. But the closest thing you'll get to it is from Al-Azhar University in Egypt, the oldest instituion of learning in the Muslim world. The former grand imam, Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Sayyid_Tantawy#Suicide_bombings"]said[/url] that suicide bombing against civilians is not Islamic.

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1313897542' post='2292408']

Like who, Mother Theresa? John Paul II? Catholics may dislike the direction the West has taken in some areas, but hatred towards themselves? Absolutely not.[/quote] And many Muslims are Westerners. They may also hate the direction the West has taken in some places, e.g. the homosexuality and foreign policy, but that doesn't mean they also hate everything in the West.

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1313897542' post='2292408']
People have a very P.C. mentality towards these things. I suggest actually reading what Islamic scholars themselves say. You should look into Jihad, rendering capture women as slaves, etc. And this is not something that is in the past, this is something Muslims regard to be upheld for all times.[/quote] I've studied Islam. As an atheist, or at least an agnostic, I don't think Islam is true. But as someone who works with Muslims and have many Muslim friends, I don't buy into the scare-mongering. I've studied Islam. I haven't learned Arabic and gone full out, but I've made an effort to look into this religion beyond what some talking head on TV tells me. I've talked to Muslims, I've gone to mosques, I've been to their prayer services and listened to their sermons, I've read their books in translation. And I'm not concerned. If you can't say the same, then I don't know why I should believe what you say about their religion.
[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1313897542' post='2292408']
Look into The Reliance of the Traveler, by Nu Ha Mim Keller, a convert no less!
[/quote]What about it?

Edited August 21, 2011 by Kia ora

[mortify]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1313900660' post='2292441']
I'm sure you can show me the reference for this claim.[/quote]

I'm afraid I can't pull up the reference, but Ibn Taymiyya's fatwas are often used as a foundation for suicide bombing.

http://www.meforum.org/1003/the-religious-foundations-of-suicide-bombings#_ftn70

[quote]Sunni Islam is not like Catholicism, it has no Magisterium and no official opinions.[/quote]

It is true that Sunni Islam has no Pope, but it is absolutely false to say it has not official opinions. The fact is Sunni Islam has 4 Schools of legal thought that agree in the vast majority of cases. The differences between the schools of thought are minor, e.g. whether to place hands at the chest or abdomen during prayer. There is no difference of opinion, for example, in that Muslims are to wage war against non muslim nations to spread Islam, or that Christians and Jews are to be conquered and pay a poll tax, and that converting a Muslim leads to the execution of the Muslim and preacher. Furthermore, where there is ijma, or consensus among scholars, that ruling is BINDING. It's a total misnomer to think that Muslims can just interpret the Quran and hadith as they wish.


[quote]But the closest thing you'll get to it is from Al-Azhar University in Egypt, the oldest instituion of learning in the Muslim world. The former grand imam, Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Sayyid_Tantawy#Suicide_bombings"]said[/url] that suicide bombing against civilians is not Islamic.[/quote]

There are scholars from Al Azhar who do support suicide bombing, e.g. ‘Abd al-'Azim al-Mit'ani. But either way, Alzhar is not even a shadow of what it used to be, and it's hard to say how many Muslims are actually represented by a mufti in egypt. .

[quote]And many Muslims are Westerners. They may also hate the direction the West has taken in some places, e.g. the homosexuality and foreign policy, but that doesn't mean they also hate everything in the West.[/quote]

Westernized Muslims are toned down, for the most part at least. But there are many Muslims in the West, born of immigrants, who end up more radical than their liberal parents. The reason is because as they become more religious, they realize that the West is intrinsically incompatible with an Islamic society. In an Islamic society you would get executed for publically critiquing Islam.

[quote]I've studied Islam. As an atheist, or at least an agnostic, I don't think Islam is true. But as someone who works with Muslims and have many Muslim friends, I don't buy into the scare-mongering. I've studied Islam. I haven't learned Arabic and gone full out, but I've made an effort to look into this religion beyond what some talking head on TV tells me. I've talked to Muslims, I've gone to mosques, I've been to their prayer services and listened to their sermons, I've read their books in translation. And I'm not concerned. If you can't say the same, then I don't know why I should believe what you say about their religion.[/quote]

The difference between you and me is that I didn't merely study Islam, I practiced it. Whether you are aware of it or not, the goal is for Islam to reign supreme world wide, and as one moderate Muslim once said, it need not be through jihad. Jihad is only one way of spreading religion, and so far it has been the least successful, another way is to simply outnumber the native population.

[quote]
What about it?
[/quote]

Chapter 9 section 8 of the book regards the objectives of jihad. The notes in parentheses are from the translator, Nu Ha Mim Keller. (quotes are in blue)

[color=#0000FF]o9.8 The caliph (o25) makes war upon Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians (N: provided he has first
invited them to enter Islam in faith and practice, and if they will not, then invited them to enter the social
order of Islam by paying the non-Muslim poll tax (jizya, def: o11.4)-which is the significance of their
paying it, not the money itself-while remaining in their ancestral religions) (O: and the war continues)
until they become Muslim or else pay the non-Muslim poll tax (O: in accordance with the word of Allah
Most High,
"Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day and who forbid not what Allah and His
messenger have forbidden-who do not practice the religion of truth, being of those who have been given
the Book-until they pay the poll tax out of hand and are humbled" (Koran 9.29),[/color]

and...

[color=#0000FF]o9.9 The caliph fights all other peoples until they become Muslim (O: because they are not a people with
a Book, nor honored as such, and are not permitted to settle with paying the poll tax (jizya)) (n: though
according to the Hanafi school, peoples of all other religions, even idol worshippers, are permitted to
live under the protection of the Islamic state if they either become Muslim or agree to pay the poll tax,
the sole exceptions to which are apostates from Islam and idol worshippers who are Arabs, neither of
whom has any choice but becoming Muslim (al-Hidaya sharh Bidaya al-mubtadi' (y21), 6.48-49)).[/color]


This is taken from a pdf file of the entire book which can be accessed here:

http://www.shafiifiqh.com/maktabah/relianceoftraveller.pdf


Please get your head out of the sand!

[mortify]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1313900660' post='2292441']
I've studied Islam. As an atheist, or at least an agnostic, I don't think Islam is true. But as someone who works with Muslims and have many Muslim friends, I don't buy into the scare-mongering. I've studied Islam. I haven't learned Arabic and gone full out, but I've made an effort to look into this religion beyond what some talking head on TV tells me. I've talked to Muslims, I've gone to mosques, I've been to their prayer services and listened to their sermons, I've read their books in translation. And I'm not concerned. If you can't say the same, then I don't know why I should believe what you say about their religion.
[/quote]

Did your Muslim friends ever tell you about what happens to those who apostatize from Islam?

[color=#0000FF][b][u]o8.0 APOSTASY FROM ISLAM (RIDDA)[/u][/b]
(O: Leaving Islam is the ugliest form of unbelief (kufr) and the worst. It may come about through
sarcasm, as when someone is told, ``Trim your nails, it is sunna,'' and he replies, ``I would not do it even
if it were,'' as opposed to when some circumstance exists which exonerates him of having committed
apostasy, such as when his tongue runs away with him, or when he is quoting someone, or says it out of
fear.)
o8.1 When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves
to be killed.[/color]


This isn't from a bigoted Fox news program, this is from a moderate Islamic source.





Wake up.

[mortify]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1313900660' post='2292441']
I've studied Islam. As an atheist, or at least an agnostic, I don't think Islam is true. But as someone who works with Muslims and have many Muslim friends, I don't buy into the scare-mongering. I've studied Islam. I haven't learned Arabic and gone full out, but I've made an effort to look into this religion beyond what some talking head on TV tells me. I've talked to Muslims, I've gone to mosques, I've been to their prayer services and listened to their sermons, I've read their books in translation. And I'm not concerned. If you can't say the same, then I don't know why I should believe what you say about their religion.
[/quote]

Did the books you read mention what happens to women captured as war booty?

[color=#0000FF]o9.13 When a child or a woman is taken captive, they become slaves by the fact of capture, and the
woman's previous marriage is immediately annulled.[/color]

Are you aware that a Muslim man can sleep with his slaves?

Are you aware it would not be considered rape if the slave resisted?

http://islamqa.com/en/ref/10382/concubine


As you read this keep in mind these are laws Muslims regard as perfected by God. They are meant to be followed and spread everywhere.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1313818339' post='2291846']

The people who do suicide bombings aren't the most religious or fundamentalist Muslims. They may hate the West and all it stands for, but that doesn't mean they're going to contradict their religion and kill themselves and others, thereby earning a one way ticket to Hell.
[/quote]
Problem is, they don't see killing themselves and others in the name of Allah as contradicting their religion at all, and believe their actions not to be a one way ticket to hell, but an all-expenses paid trip to paradise, with seven virgins waiting.

I would certainly not characterize "extremist" Muslims such as members al Qaeda to be at all irreligious or secular. Secular or irreligious Muslims generally see no reason to lose their lives for their religion. Osama bin Laden's terrorism had everything to do with his religious beliefs.

Not all Muslims believe suicide bombing to be a legitimate form of waging Jihad against infidels (which the Koran does indeed call for), but others do.
As Islam is itself a man-made false religion, arguments over which view represents "true Islam" are moot.

My point still stands.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Socrates

[ardillacid]

Only seven virgins now? Are they rationing them out now? It seems logical that they would eventually run out.

[Wikitiki]

A Muslim friend of mine (who lives and I assume grew up in Dubai) says the only reason she hates America is that we get most of her favorite cartoons before they do.

I, uh, may not be fit for this conversation.

[Papist]

[quote name='ardillacid' timestamp='1314156030' post='2294084']
Only seven virgins now? Are they rationing them out now? It seems logical that they would eventually run out.
[/quote]
We're in a recession. Didn't you know?

[Ice_nine]

If there is no threat that Islam poses, why do groups like this exist? http://formermuslimsunited.org/?page_id=2150

I'm not aware that a group of apostates from any religion has a group to say "our former religion poses an immediate risk to the physical safety of apostates and infidels." Yeah I know that people leave Catholicism too because they think the church is corrupt and evil, and perhaps that it did evil things long ago, and perhaps that they think it is oppressive and hateful, but I don't know of any group that would suggest the Church poses a physical threat to its apostates and non-Catholics.Or any other major religion for that matter, and I'm talking in the present. Correct me if I am wrong.

I think we need to listen and be open to talking about possible dangers. I know Islamophobia exists. And I know that when an American sees a bearded man with a turban there might be an inward reaction of fear or disgust. It shouldn't be so, but to simply dismiss all the evidence that Islam poses ideological roadblocks to a free and peaceful society is over-compensating.

I don't know of too many Muslims in real life, but the one I was a classmate with for quite a while was perhaps one of the nicest people I've ever met. I GET that most Muslims are probably just people who want to live in peace like the rest of us, but we're not talking about the people, we're talking about a belief system. There are many Muslims who say "no no Islam is peaceful and these people are deceiving you with fear etc etc," and I believe lots of those people sincerely believe that, but that doesn't meant I accept their claim. To me it says "if these people are loving and caring people, and I have no reason to assume they are not, it's apparent that God has affected this within them." It doesn't convince me that Islam is not dangerous, but more so convinces me that the faith these particular people have does not pose a threat to me.

Subtle distinction. I sure the the more conservative people could use a bit more sensitivity. I know if someone is sitting there bashing Islam (even if their crits were legit) that it might cause sadness and feelings of alienation in Muslims who may be reading the tirade. Hey, sometimes when people bash the Church, even if they're criticisms are understandable, it's a little disheartening because my faith is part of me. But for the sake of intellectual honesty and sincerity of faith you move past these obstacles and try to learn and grow.

And I think the "leftists" up in academia need a bit more realism.

just my 2 cents

[Socrates]

[quote name='ardillacid' timestamp='1314156030' post='2294084']
Only seven virgins now? Are they rationing them out now? It seems logical that they would eventually run out.
[/quote]
Oops . . . guess so.

Most of them now are apparently losing their virginity before the allotted time. Moral standards have indeed fallen, even in the Islamic Paradise.

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1314184785' post='2294160']
We're in a recession. Didn't you know?
[/quote]
Even Allah himself has been hard hit.

[Kia ora]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1313904226' post='2292467']

I'm afraid I can't pull up the reference, but Ibn Taymiyya's fatwas are often used as a foundation for suicide bombing.

[url="http://www.meforum.org/1003/the-religious-foundations-of-suicide-bombings#_ftn70"]http://www.meforum.o...bombings#_ftn70[/url]

[/quote] If you can't find a reference, I can't accept it as a valid claim.

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1313904226' post='2292467']
It is true that Sunni Islam has no Pope, but it is absolutely false to say it has not official opinions. The fact is Sunni Islam has 4 Schools of legal thought that agree in the vast majority of cases. The differences between the schools of thought are minor, e.g. whether to place hands at the chest or abdomen during prayer. There is no difference of opinion, for example, in that Muslims are to wage war against non muslim nations to spread Islam, or that Christians and Jews are to be conquered and pay a poll tax, and that converting a Muslim leads to the execution of the Muslim and preacher. Furthermore, where there is ijma, or consensus among scholars, that ruling is BINDING. It's a total misnomer to think that Muslims can just interpret the Quran and hadith as they wish.[/quote] It has no official opinions in the sense that one can't look up a book, except maybe the Qur'an, and say that this is what Islam teaches. And the Qur'an is not a good example, because Muslims do not believe in sola scriptura.

The differences in madhabs (for those who don't know what they are, they're the four schools of Islamic law in Sunni Islam) are representative of that. I don't agree that they differ only on minor things. How to pray is not a minor thing.

When you get down to it, they interpret the Sunna (the Prophet's legacy) in different ways. And that is a big thing by anyone's measure. The way that ordinary Muslims understand the madhabs is not 'this madhab is wrong, my madhab is right'. They're much more tolerant of the variety within their religion. They don't cite the founder of their school and expect other Muslims to accept this opinion because it's an official opinion, because they don't have official opinions.

The Muslims who most attack the madhabs are probably Salafis, the unorthodox and relatively new fundamentalists. Traditional Muslims do not do this.

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1313904226' post='2292467']
There are scholars from Al Azhar who do support suicide bombing, e.g. ‘Abd al-'Azim al-Mit'ani. [/quote] And who is this man? Why should Muslims listen to him over the Grand Imam himself?

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1313904226' post='2292467']
Westernized Muslims are toned down, for the most part at least. But there are many Muslims in the West, born of immigrants, who end up more radical than their liberal parents. The reason is because as they become more religious, they realize that the West is intrinsically incompatible with an Islamic society. In an Islamic society you would get executed for publically critiquing Islam.[/quote] Even the 'radicalised' Muslims you speak of are Western. They live in the West, so they're Western. They were born here, so they are Western. The idea that you have to believe one thing and live in a certain way to be a Western person is a fallacy and a pernicious one. A Muslim who wants the West to turn to Islam is as Western as I am.

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1313904226' post='2292467']
The difference between you and me is that I didn't merely study Islam, I practiced it.[/quote] Were you born a Muslim or did you convert?

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1313904226' post='2292467']
Whether you are aware of it or not, the goal is for Islam to reign supreme world wide, and as one moderate Muslim once said, it need not be through jihad. Jihad is only one way of spreading religion, and so far it has been the least successful, another way is to simply outnumber the native population.[/quote] Islam is a supremacist religion in the sense that it sees itself as the bearer of truth and wants to make that known. Quite a lot of religions think that. And it may use war or peaceable means to try to achieve that.

But I don't care what Islam is like. It's like white supremacism. I think it's distasteful to say the least, but I've got better stuff to do than to go around and convince people it's a horrible thing. Similarly, I've long since given up trying to 'disprove' or combat religions on the internet, a fruitless task of the biggest order. Not to mention that I'm not sure I'm even right, so I don't know what I'd say to religious folk to convince them to abandon their religion. Doing so would just make me another member of the dogmatist camp, someone who believes that he or she is right and others are wrong.

To be honest, I don't care too much if you attack Islam with the fervour of a true believer. Islam is a belief, it has no feelings. What I don't want to see is people attacking Muslims with patently false ideas. There is no charity and kindness in those sorts of attacks.

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1313904226' post='2292467']
Chapter 9 section 8 of the book regards the objectives of jihad. The notes in parentheses are from the translator, Nu Ha Mim Keller. (quotes are in blue)

[color=#0000FF]o9.8 The caliph (o25) makes war upon Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians (N: provided he has first[/color]
invited them to enter Islam in faith and practice, and if they will not, then invited them to enter the social
order of Islam by paying the non-Muslim poll tax (jizya, def: o11.4)-which is the significance of their
paying it, not the money itself-while remaining in their ancestral religions) (O: and the war continues)
until they become Muslim or else pay the non-Muslim poll tax (O: in accordance with the word of Allah
Most High,
"Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day and who forbid not what Allah and His
messenger have forbidden-who do not practice the religion of truth, being of those who have been given
the Book-until they pay the poll tax out of hand and are humbled" (Koran 9.29),

and...

[color=#0000FF]o9.9 The caliph fights all other peoples until they become Muslim (O: because they are not a people with[/color]
a Book, nor honored as such, and are not permitted to settle with paying the poll tax (jizya)) (n: though
according to the Hanafi school, peoples of all other religions, even idol worshippers, are permitted to
live under the protection of the Islamic state if they either become Muslim or agree to pay the poll tax,
the sole exceptions to which are apostates from Islam and idol worshippers who are Arabs, neither of
whom has any choice but becoming Muslim (al-Hidaya sharh Bidaya al-mubtadi' (y21), 6.48-49)).


This is taken from a pdf file of the entire book which can be accessed here:

[url="http://www.shafiifiqh.com/maktabah/relianceoftraveller.pdf"]http://www.shafiifiq...oftraveller.pdf[/url]


Please get your head out of the sand!
[/quote]What does this matter? You need a Caliph and an Islamic state to wage war.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1314327299' post='2295046']
It has no official opinions in the sense that one can't look up a book, except maybe the Qur'an, and say that this is what Islam teaches. And the Qur'an is not a good example, because Muslims do not believe in sola scriptura.[/quote]
Sorry, but saying the Q'ran is "not a good example" to use when discussing Islamic is as stupid as declaring that the Bible is not a good example to use when discussing Christian beliefs, even if Catholics and others are not Sola Scriptura.

By any standards, the Q'ran is the most authoritative Muslim text there is. (Obviously, there are disagreements as to its correct interpretation, but that doesn't mean the Q'ran itself mut be disregarded.)

[quote]Even the 'radicalised' Muslims you speak of are Western. They live in the West, so they're Western. They were born here, so they are Western. The idea that you have to believe one thing and live in a certain way to be a Western person is a fallacy and a pernicious one. A Muslim who wants the West to turn to Islam is as Western as I am.[/quote]
That "argument" is fallacious and silly.

"Western" in this sense is not just referring to geographical location, but a culture and civilization ("Western civilization"). There are differences between traditional "Western" (European-based) and Islamic culture and civilization wherever particular people may live or be born. Just in the same way someone from America or Europe working and living in Saudi Arabia or Japan may still be "Western" in his thought and outlook, despite his non-Western location.

Islam is something foreign to "Western" culture.

[quote] Islam is a supremacist religion in the sense that it sees itself as the bearer of truth and wants to make that known. Quite a lot of religions think that. And it may use war or peaceable means to try to achieve that.



But I don't care what Islam is like. It's like white supremacism. I think it's distasteful to say the least, but I've got better stuff to do than to go around and convince people it's a horrible thing. Similarly, I've long since given up trying to 'disprove' or combat religions on the internet, a fruitless task of the biggest order. Not to mention that I'm not sure I'm even right, so I don't know what I'd say to religious folk to convince them to abandon their religion. Doing so would just make me another member of the dogmatist camp, someone who believes that he or she is right and others are wrong.

To be honest, I don't care too much if you attack Islam with the fervour of a true believer. Islam is a belief, it has no feelings. What I don't want to see is people attacking Muslims with patently false ideas. There is no charity and kindness in those sorts of attacks.

What does this matter? You need a Caliph and an Islamic state to wage war.
[/quote]
If you care nothing about religious belief or religious debate, why spend time debating on a specifically religious debate board?

[Kia ora]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1314489350' post='2296037']
Sorry, but saying the Q'ran is "not a good example" to use when discussing Islamic is as stupid as declaring that the Bible is not a good example to use when discussing Christian beliefs, even if Catholics and others are not Sola Scriptura.

By any standards, the Q'ran is the most authoritative Muslim text there is. (Obviously, there are disagreements as to its correct interpretation, but that doesn't mean the Q'ran itself mut be disregarded.)[/quote] I said the Qur'an is not a good example to use for official Islamic opinions. I didn't say we shouldn't use it at all.

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1314489350' post='2296037']
That "argument" is fallacious and silly.

"Western" in this sense is not just referring to geographical location, but a culture and civilization ("Western civilization"). There are differences between traditional "Western" (European-based) and Islamic culture and civilization wherever particular people may live or be born. Just in the same way someone from America or Europe working and living in Saudi Arabia or Japan may still be "Western" in his thought and outlook, despite his non-Western location.

Islam is something foreign to "Western" culture.[/quote] I don't believe it is. Moreover, culture is a social construction.

Can a Westerner not be a Muslim? Or vice versa? How about a Buddhist?

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1314489350' post='2296037']
If you care nothing about religious belief or religious debate, why spend time debating on a specifically religious debate board?
[/quote]
I didn't say I cared nothing about religious belief. I won't try to convert or deconvert people, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy getting into debates about all sorts of things, religious belief being one of those things. I think it's a fascinating subject.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1314493813' post='2296077']
I said the Qur'an is not a good example to use for official Islamic opinions. I didn't say we shouldn't use it at all.[/quote]
Seriously, what would be a better example to use?

What is more "official" in Islam than the Q'ran?

[quote]I don't believe it is. Moreover, culture is a social construction.[/quote]
If we use the traditional meaning of Western culture as that originating in Europe, and heavily influenced (directly or indirectly) by Christianity for 2000 years, then yes it is. Western culture (broadly, Europe and areas heavily colonized by Europe) is distinct from Islamic culture and Far Eastern culture and civilization.

Culture may be a "social construct" (which seems like essentially another way of saying the same thing), but that does not make not real or unimportant in human activity.

Trying to avoid this by reducing "Western" and such to mere geographic locations is silly and solipsic.

[quote]Can a Westerner not be a Muslim? Or vice versa? How about a Buddhist?[/quote]
If he whole-heartedly adopts Islam as his core beliefs and way of life, he would be abandoning Western culture, regardless of his geographic or racial origins. The same thing might be said to a lesser extent of Buddhism.

(I'm referring to an actual serious commitment to these beliefs, not some fashionable superficial affiliation.)
People can and do live in the West, yet be culturally non-Western. ( And vice-versa.)

Edited August 28, 2011 by Socrates