Muslim attitudes towards the West

[Madame Vengier]

Keep the insults coming. You're doing a great job.

[Apotheoun]

The point of this thread is to highlight Islamic attitudes towards the West (and Israel) as presented on Islamic TV.

Members of Phatmass calling each other names is pointless. [color="#FF0000"]Please stick to the topic.[/color]

[url="http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1770.htm"][u]Jordanian University Lecturer Ibrahim 'Alloush Suggests Sending Suicide-Bombers Armed with "Small Nuclear Bombs" to Israel[/u][/url]

Edited May 22, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[url="http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/1761.htm"][u]Former Jordanian Minister Ali Al-Faqir Vows to Conquer Spain and Rome and Declares: America and the EU Will Soon Come to an End[/u][/url]

[Socrates]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1535801' date='May 21 2008, 12:49 AM']I'm well aware of that, but if we weren't Catholic, we probably wouldn't have a clue. All I'm saying is the existence of extremist Islam doesn't mean Islam is itself in favor of violence any more than the existence of Catholics for a Free Choice means Catholicism is itself in favor of contraception and gay marriage.[/quote]
Give me a break. Anyone who does the smallest amount of research can tell that those dissident groups are dissenters from official Catholic dogma, not vice-versa, whatever their own opinion may be on those matters. Even the most liberal of media reports will say that these groups break with Rome and Catholic tradition on these issues, even if they side with the dissenters.
As I said before (but unfortunately accidentally messed up with the quote feature), while the Church teaches firmly against such dissent, where is the equivalent strong, firm and unambiguous denunciation by "mainstream Islam" of acts of Islamic violence by the "extremists"?

[quote]Instead of looking at the opinions that are out there, we need to look at the religion itself.[/quote]
Yes, and the religion of Islam itself, as stated in the Koran, says that Christians and Jews that refuse to convert to Islam are to be fought into submission and made to pay a penal tax in recognition of Muslim superiority.
And this has been standard practice from the earliest conquests in Muslim ruled lands. It's not a deviation.

[quote]Our record with Jews, the Orthodox, Protestants, and natives in the Americas isn't a whole lot better. Why are we allowed to ignore rapes and murders at the hands of Christians (even against other Christians) while we attack Muslims for the same sins?[/quote]
With all due respect, that is a load of manure. The Catholic Church has simply not been involved in anything like the Islamic terrorism which continues around the world to this day. Yes, self-professed Christians have done some very un-Christian things, yet their deeds are not sanctioned by the Church, and are often unambigously condemned. And warfare between two groups is not the same as terrorism.

It is this blatantly false allegation that Islam is no more violent or prone to evil than Christianity that I take greatest issue with here. This kind of self-depreciating equivocation between Muslims and Christians may be pc, but it is hardly supported by the facts.

[quote]Ditto ;-) You've come here to say we need to take a stand against Islam and do something about it. I agree that Islam doesn't teach the truth. I agree that Islam is prone to terrorism (though it's one of several contributing factors). What are we supposed to do about it?[/quote]
We need to take the threat seriously, and form policy accordingly. Also, some have worked to try to build up resistance among more moderate Muslim groups against violence. And of course, pray.
However, denying reality, and claiming that Islam is really no more violent than Catholicism does no one a favor whatsoever.

[quote]What makes you think Saudi Arabia is one of the world's richest countries?

Let's look at GDP per capita from the [url="https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/index.html"]CIA World Factbook[/url] for some countries that are know to harbor terrorists and are generally uncooperative with the West in fighting terrorism:

Saudi Arabia: $20,700
Iran: $12,300
Egypt: $5,400
Syria: $4,300
Iraq: $3,600
Pakistan: $2,600
Sudan: $2,500
Afghanistan: $1,000

And some countries that are relatively peaceful and cooperative with the West:

Qatar: $75,900
Kuwait: $55,300
United Arab Emirates: $55,200
Turkey: $9,400

For sake of comparison:
United States: $46,000

Keep in mind, however, that these stats can be misleading due to the incredibly disproportionate amount of wealth held by the leaders of most countries whose economies relies so much on a natural resource. Contrary to our perception, the vast majority of Arabs are far poorer than our own poor. After all, you can make more than Turkey's GDP per capita just working full-time at McDonald's. So, it's safe to say that that standard of living for most citizens of Kuwait, Qatar, and the UAE is probably not as high as most Americans.

FWIW, these three are are among the [url="https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html"]world's ten richest countries[/url]. Luxembourg is the richest.[/quote]
Ok, I may have been confusing Saudi Arabia with the other rich oil-producing countries you listed. (Still, ranking 58 richest out of 239 hardly qualifies it among the world's poorest nations.)
However, there are quite a few oil-rich fat cats in Saudi Arabia (including the Bin Laden family), and it has been well-established that these rich Saudi fat cats are the world's leading financiers of terrorism and Islamic extremism around the globe. (see the [url="http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL32499.pdf"]CRS Report to Congress on Saudi Arabia: Terrorist Financing Issues[/url].)

[quote]Did Osama grow up in a rich family? I really don't know. What I'd like to see is evidence that says middle class Muslims are just as likely to become terrorists as the poor or the very few rich.[/quote]
I thought the wealth of Osama bin Laden's family was common knowledge.
From Wikipedia:[quote]Osama bin Laden was born in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.[12] In a 1998 interview, he gave his birth date as 10 March 1957.[13] [b]His father Muhammed Awad bin Laden was a wealthy businessman with close ties to the Saudi royal family.[/b][14] Osama bin Laden was born the only son of Muhammed bin Laden's tenth wife, Hamida al-Attas.[15] Osama's parents divorced soon after he was born, according to Khaled M. Batarfi. Osama's mother then married Muhammad al-Attas. The couple had four children, and Osama lived in the new household with three stepbrothers and one stepsister.[16]

Bin Laden was raised as a devout Sunni Muslim.[17] From 1968 to 1976 he attended the "élite" secular Al-Thager Model School.[18] Bin Laden studied economics and business administration[19] at King Abdulaziz University. Some reports suggest bin Laden earned a degree in civil engineering in 1979,[20] or a degree in public administration in 1981.[21] Other sources describe him as having left university during his third year,[22] never completing a college degree, though "hard working."[23] At university, bin Laden's main interest was religion, where he was involved in both "interpreting the Quran and jihad" and charitable work.[/quote]
Whatever bin Laden's motivations, poverty and "lack of opportunity for legitimate success" would hardly seem to be among them!
Just run a search on Osama bin Laden, and most stories about him mention his great wealth. The BBC in an early news story describes him as "[b]an immensely wealthy and private man[/b]." (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/155236.stm)
None of the 9-11 terrorists were living in desperate poverty, and I remember reading in other reports that at least a fair number of Islamic terrorists came from solidly middle-class backgrounds.
It was you who asserted that it poverty was a major root cause of terrorism, yet you have provided nothing whatever to show that most Islamic terrorists were living in desperate poverty.

It can also be noted that Turkey, on your list of "countries that are relatively peaceful and cooperative with the West" has less than half the per capita wealth of Saudi Arabia, so clearly poverty is not the main factor here.

It may be common and pc in the liberal west to blame the world's problems primarily on poverty and economic factors, however this does not really reflect the truth, reflecting rather a materialistic view of human nature, which downplays the importance of things like religion. (Before you jump on me, I'm not accusing you of having a materialistic mindset, but you seemed to have absorbed the common secular view of world affairs which reflects this.)

[quote]Are we talking about all the last 2,000 years or only current day? Christian terrorism is out there. Here's a whole list of Christian terrorist groups [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism"]on wikipedia[/url] operating in the U.S., Canada, Burma, Uganda, Northern Ireland, Yugoslavia, India, Lebanon, and Russia (the article is apparently pretty biased, but I'm only using it as a source stating the existence of these groups).[/quote]
Yeah, I saw all the warnings at top. Is that the best you can come up with?
Most of such groups are fringes of fringes, and have done absolutely nothing on the scale of Islamic terrorism. Saying that Islam is no more violent than Christianity is pc garbage, not rooted in the facts. As a Christian, why are you regurgitating this croutons? Honestly.

[quote]Still, in the end, we're still faced with the question of what to do about Islam.[/quote]
See my answer earlier.

Edited May 22, 2008 by Socrates

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1536606' date='May 21 2008, 08:17 PM']Keep the insults coming. You're doing a great job.[/quote]

Mad V, if you were capable of posting even one fact, like Socrates did, I'd find you at least partially tolerable. I've asked honest questions and you've only responded with hostility. To me, that means you don't have a clue what you're talking about since you're apparently incapable of explaining it. All you do is scream and throw temper tantrums like a two-year-old kid who dropped her pacifier.

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1536733' date='May 21 2008, 10:53 PM']The point of this thread is to highlight Islamic attitudes towards the West (and Israel) as presented on Islamic TV.

Members of Phatmass calling each other names is pointless. [color="#FF0000"]Please stick to the topic.[/color][/quote]

What's the point of posting these videos? Maybe I don't get it because I haven't watched any of them, but it seems like the kind of thing where if you've seen one, you've seen them all. So, is there a point, or will this just be an endless series of the same videos?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1536784' date='May 21 2008, 11:36 PM']Give me a break. Anyone who does the smallest amount of research can tell that those dissident groups are dissenters from official Catholic dogma, not vice-versa, whatever their own opinion may be on those matters. Even the most liberal of media reports will say that these groups break with Rome and Catholic tradition on these issues, even if they side with the dissenters.[/quote]

Well, it took me a while to figure that out. I once thought Dignity/USA and other such groups made pretty good arguments for their positions before settling with the Church. But, without that wandering curiosity, I probably would've never considered Catholicism to begin with. It's much easier to go with what you're given or what your close friends believe, just as it would be easier to consent to the popular opinion that Islam and terrorism are inextricably linked. I'd rather figure it out for myself.

[quote name='Socrates' post='1536784' date='May 21 2008, 11:36 PM']As I said before (but unfortunately accidentally messed up with the quote feature), while the Church teaches firmly against such dissent, where is the equivalent strong, firm and unambiguous denunciation by "mainstream Islam" of acts of Islamic violence by the "extremists"?[/quote]

You say later on here that some have worked with moderate Muslims to build resistance against extremists. Are there no imams or other Muslim leaders who speak out against terrorism?

[quote name='Socrates' post='1536784' date='May 21 2008, 11:36 PM']With all due respect, that is a load of manure. The Catholic Church has simply not been involved in anything like the Islamic terrorism which continues around the world to this day. Yes, self-professed Christians have done some very un-Christian things, yet their deeds are not sanctioned by the Church, and are often unambigously condemned.[/quote]

True, not as extensive perhaps as Islamic terrorism, but anywhere you have a state religion (whether it's Catholicism, Islam, or some Protestant faith), you see similiar forms of persecution.

[quote name='Socrates' post='1536784' date='May 21 2008, 11:36 PM']It is this blatantly false allegation that Islam is no more violent or prone to evil than Christianity that I take greatest issue with here.[/quote]

And why is that?

[quote name='Socrates' post='1536784' date='May 21 2008, 11:36 PM']It was you who asserted that it poverty was a major root cause of terrorism, yet you have provided nothing whatever to show that most Islamic terrorists were living in desperate poverty.[/quote]

Well, I've asked these questions before to people who are passionate about this topic, and usually I'm either ignored or yelled at. You've actually provided a logical answer

[quote name='Socrates' post='1536784' date='May 21 2008, 11:36 PM']It can also be noted that Turkey, on your list of "countries that are relatively peaceful and cooperative with the West" has less than half the per capita wealth of Saudi Arabia, so clearly poverty is not the main factor here.[/quote]

True, but then that single stat doesn't say a whole lot. Turkey's GDP per capita doesn't include obscenely rich oil families like Saudi Arabia's does.

Also, I'm not saying poverty is the main factor, but that it could be one factor among others, including Islam itself. Considering the majority of Muslims are peaceful, and the existence of Christian and Jewish terrorism (however extensive they may be), I have trouble believing Islam is the sole reason people become terrorists. Maybe it's a big reason, but it can't be the only reason.

[quote name='Socrates' post='1536784' date='May 21 2008, 11:36 PM']It may be common and pc in the liberal west to blame the world's problems primarily on poverty and economic factors, however this does not really reflect the truth, reflecting rather a materialistic view of human nature, which downplays the importance of things like religion. (Before you jump on me, I'm not accusing you of having a materialistic mindset, but you seemed to have absorbed the common secular view of world affairs which reflects this.)[/quote]

So you don't think poverty is even a contributing factor?

As for jumping on people... I'm not Mad V, to whom I honestly believe I've exhibited incredible patience (you should see what I wanted to write before toning it down).

[quote name='Socrates' post='1536784' date='May 21 2008, 11:36 PM']Yeah, I saw all the warnings at top. Is that the best you can come up with?
Most of such groups are fringes of fringes, and have done absolutely nothing on the scale of Islamic terrorism. Saying that Islam is no more violent than Christianity is pc garbage, not rooted in the facts. As a Christian, why are you regurgitating this croutons? Honestly.
See my answer earlier.[/quote]

Well, can't say I'm thoroughly familiar with the world of religious terrorism. I'm asking questions so as to actually understand this stuff instead of making the easy conclusion based on simple association.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1537195' date='May 22 2008, 10:03 AM']As for jumping on people... I'm not Mad V, to whom I honestly believe I've exhibited incredible patience (you should see what I wanted to write before toning it down).[/quote]


1: The reason I haven't provided you with any "proof" as you call it, is becuase by your own admission you don't bother to read the things that even your friends send you. I have a blog where I occasionally post informational things along with my opinions. In addition there are NUMERIOUS sites, blogs and books with information backing up what both myself and Socrates are talking about. When I pointed this out to you you made a comment about "emotionalism". This is why I haven't wasted my time with doing research and providing stats for you. Do it yourself. But you probably won't.

2: You call me a two-year old and intolerable, yet you made a threat of physical violence against me that was so abrasive and rude that a moderator edited your remark. That shows more about you than it does about me. You should learn self-control and put people on ignore if you feel you can't deal with even seeing their posts.

3: You can cozy up to Socrates all you want, but he's way smarter than you and he'll never waste his precious time playing internet volley-ball with you while you repeat the same things over and over, dodge and deflect, and make excuses for Islam and it's violent and oppressive followers. Don't expect him to do your homework for you either.

4: As of this posting, I have you on ignore. I'm telling you that not to be impudent, but to let you know so that you don't waste your time replying to my future postings when I won't be seeing them or responding.

[picchick]

Madame V,
Out of curiosity....do you block everyone who you disagree with? I find that I learn through disagreements.

[KnightofChrist]

At this rate she'll run out of people, and ban all of Phatmass by the end of the year.

[picchick]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1537435' date='May 22 2008, 02:29 PM']At this rate she'll run out of people, and ban all of Phatmass by the end of the year.[/quote]


I am not asking her out of jest...I truly want to know.

[rachael]

[quote name='picchick' post='1537429' date='May 22 2008, 02:25 PM']Madame V,
Out of curiosity....do you block everyone who you disagree with? I find that I learn through disagreements.[/quote]

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='picchick' post='1537446' date='May 22 2008, 01:35 PM']I am not asking her out of jest...I truly want to know.[/quote]

I was being silly...

[picchick]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1537466' date='May 22 2008, 02:49 PM']I was being silly... [/quote]
I understand that

I was making sure I was clear that I was not being silly.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='picchick' post='1537429' date='May 22 2008, 01:25 PM']Madame V,
Out of curiosity....do you block everyone who you disagree with? I find that I learn through disagreements.[/quote]


It's better to avoid the stress and chaos. And this is not about "disagreeing". He threatened me with physical violence. He may lack self-control but I don't. Another person I put on ignore referred to Americans as "selfish greedy pigs" and was routinely antagonistic. Even though I have her on ignore, I'm told she is STILL talking to and about me all over the forum. Another person I put on ignore called me a witch and stated the devil was my master.

Again, this is not about disagreeing with me.

And frankly, I don't know why any of you should care who I put on ignore. I only stated it so these people would not waste their time replying to me when I'm not seeing it.

[picchick]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1537585' date='May 22 2008, 04:19 PM']It's better to avoid the stress and chaos. And this is not about "disagreeing". He threatened me with physical violence. He may lack self-control but I don't. Another person I put on ignore referred to Americans as "selfish greedy pigs" and was routinely antagonistic. Even though I have her on ignore, I'm told she is STILL talking to and about me all over the forum. Another person I put on ignore called me a witch and stated the devil was my master.

Again, this is not about disagreeing with me.

And frankly, I don't know why any of you should care who I put on ignore. I only stated it so these people would not waste their time replying to me when I'm not seeing it.[/quote]

Thank you for answering my question.

I do not care who you put on ignore. If you talk to anyone who knows me on the board or if you looked how at I operate...I ask questions...all the time. That is how I learn about the world around me and the people in that world. Just thought I'd clarify.

Furthermore, just to let you know, that the people who respond to you who are blocked just might be answering you for clarification sake or to educate others who can see them. Just a thought on my part.

God Bless,
Meg