Question for anyone

[Socrates]

[quote name='TLJC' date='Jul 12 2005, 02:48 PM']Christ is always correct, the church can sometimes get it wrong.

For example female alter servers...  They changed this law because people were just doing it anyways....

the church isnt always right, there are a few things wrong with it that Joseph Ratzinger will sort out!
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That is a disciplinary measure, not a Church doctrine.

[TLJC]

I agree, if someone sins a seal and confession is acceptable i am a believer in that. If someone commits murder and does not correct there ways, by this i am saying not going to the police then a seal shouldnt be granted. Yes go to confession by all means and get a blessing but let the priest help you and get the seal granted.

I dunno, you gove good points to, maybe we have a brick wall on this.

[Briguy]

Hi Socrates, you had said that priest absolving sins is the only way to be sure that a sin has been absolved. It seems to me that we are told in 1 John and other scriptures that if we confess our sins God will forgive us. In the context in 1st John that confession is to God directly and not to a 3rd party. I know I have total forgiveness from God when I ask him. Remember the man that went to the temple and basically fell down and cried out to God, something like, "be merciful Lord to this sinner" The Bible says that that man walked away forgiven of his sins. We can know we have been absolved (not held accountable) because God shows us in His word that we are.

In Christ,
Brian

[Socrates]

[quote name='Briguy' date='Jul 13 2005, 07:34 AM']Hi Socrates, you had said that priest absolving sins is the only way to be sure that a sin has been absolved. It seems to me that we are told in 1 John and other scriptures that if we confess our sins God will forgive us. In the context in 1st John that confession is to God directly and not to a 3rd party. I know I have total forgiveness from God when I ask him. Remember the man that went to the temple and basically fell down and cried out to God, something like, "be merciful Lord to this sinner"  The Bible says that that man walked away forgiven of his sins. We can know we have been absolved (not held accountable) because God shows us in His word that we are.

In Christ,
Brian
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Are you Catholic or Protestant?

If you are Catholic, you must believe that the Christ instituted the Sacrament of Penance for a reason. If we can be assured of forgiveness every time we confess directly to God, why have this Sacrament? If a Catholic is truly repentant, he will go to sacramental confession if at all possible.

[Quietfire]

[quote name='TLJC' date='Jul 12 2005, 10:41 AM']Briguy made VERY AGOOD POINTS, and you should respect them.

I agree what he says, if the church church decided to make a confession about a murder NOT VAILD, then would you agree to that.

If someone has a confession about a murder he must confess to God directly. No confession of a murder or rape should be allowed and granted the seal.

By the way i am a Roman Catholic and fully support the old ways, but we cant pick and choose them...
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No he didnt so why should I show more respect for his opinion than God's laws.

The confessional is not some random man in there who decides whether or not you may or maybe not be guilty.

Get this straight...The priest in the confessional may as well be Jesus Himself, because he (the priest) is the person of Jesus (in persona Christi) in the confessional.
Thinking that a priest should go around telling peoples confessions is the same as thinking Jesus should go around telling peoples confessions.
How much respect would I have for a priest if he came up to me and told me that he knew who murdered my loved one and wanted to let me know who it was? I would have NO respect for him and would seriously question his calling.
I would look him straight in the eye and ask him if he could face God knowing he is breaking the confessional.


And YES. I HAVE lost a loved one to murder. So dont assume some of us have never gone through it. Dont assume it doesnt torture me day and night not knowing who did it and why.

Respect?
Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese.

Edited July 13, 2005 by Quietfire

[TLJC]

Ok, thats your point... i didnt see him disprespect you...

we are catholics after all.

Edited July 13, 2005 by TLJC

[Quietfire]

[quote name='TLJC' date='Jul 13 2005, 03:32 PM']Ok, thats your point...  i didnt see him disprespect you... 

we are catholics after all.
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I just get a bit sensitive about this, thats all.
I see it this way...
I dont see the Church as simply some building, or the Vatican. All these things can pass away.
I dont see the Church as simply some member pedofiler, or member stealing from the basket, or member murdering.

When I see the Church, I see Jesus.

One must tread lightly when we bring up topics such as this.

It just looks too much like youre questioning God's authority, and yelling at the Church for it.

The Church doesnt make the rules, God does.
The Church simply follows God's rules obediently.

Yes, I am angry because I dont know who killed him, I dont know why. I have imagined every crazy scenario possible. What saddens me more is that he wasnt Catholic, so I pray for him, ya know? I pray for me too, to accept what I cannot know right now.
But all that aside, I would still be very, very, very upset if a priest approached me and told me he knew who killed him and wanted me to know.
As a Catholic, this SHOULD be upsetting.
Yes, there would always be that part of me that would want to know. But the offense it would give to God would be nothing short of a strong slap in His face.

My salvation is more important than that.
And so is the priests.

Pax
and
Love

[Briguy]

Socrates, I am not Catholic with a capital C, I am a member of the body of christ and so I would accept being called a catholic with a small c. I attend a non-denominational Bible church. Our pulpit teachings are like what you would hear Charles Stanley or John MaCarther preach. We hold strickly to the Bible. There is a huge group of assemblies that hold to my assemblies core teachings.

Quietfire, so sorry to hear about your loved one. Was this a friend or a family member? I ask this only to try and understand better your perspective. I assume it was not a child or i think you would have mentioned it. It is a horrible thing regardless and I am sorry for you and those who you know and love that are dealing with it. I am a social worker (19 years and running) and so I analyze things a lot, usually too much.

I think sometimes we want to assume that being miserable on earth is Ok because God has a greater plan then us and a bigger picture to look at. as true as that is there is a natural right and wrong that God has given us. There are also laws that we are to obey that were given by God appointed (or allowed) leaders. If a law is not directly in violation with a direct command in the Bible, it is hard to see a reason not to obey it. If you have to sin to obey the law that is one thing otherwise we need to obey the nations laws and render to Ceasor what is his. It is illegal to withhold information in this country. Morally it would be a absolute ghoulish thing for me to know the whereabouts of a murdered child and not tell the parents, especially when they do not know if the child is living or dead. Everyone here would agree for me to know and not say anything would be just apthetic and unfathomable, morally that is. But yet in the name of God, it is Ok for a priest to keep this information secret, even if he does not turn in the criminal. If it is morally horrid for me I can't reason in my brain why it is just peachy for the priest to do it. I understand the whole seal thing and how you view it as a sacrament that can't be messed with. Causing huge pain on earth to humans that God loves does not seem to forward the message of love that embraces NT teaching. I will stop and let you all respond.

Thanks for the good discussion,
Brian

[DojoGrant]

I haven't read this whole thread, but Brother Adam asked me to drop by and offer a response to the question of why a priest has the sacramental seal in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, that is, he cannot turn around and turn in a murderer who confesses a murder, but must remain quiet about it.

There are a couple of points to consider:

The law of the Jews was to stone an adultress, was it not? When Jesus came and found the woman about to be stoned, he didn't pick up a stone and hurl it, did He? Forgiveness is what He offered her.

The point, being, that while Jesus is certainly the great judge of souls, His forgiveness trumps the eternal punishment for sins that is due for the sinner.

Thus, when a penitent comes before a priest, who has been handed on the charge of binding/loosing sin in the name of Our Lord (John 20), the priest is acting in the person of Christ the redeemer, not Christ the judge. The priest's sacred duty is to freely offer the forgiveness of Christ to the penitent, not to pronounce condemnation of them.

Now, in our faith tradition, the priest also must give the newly forgiven man a penance; however, if the penance is too much to bear, the forgiven man may freely ask for a different penance, and the priest is obliged to give him a different one.

Now, if you have broken the law, the just thing to do is to serve the sentence (the temporal punishment for the sin) that the law requires. However, man is still weak, even in his sanctification, and it is not easy to turn oneself in. That cannot be a penance, because that is too high of a deman on any person. The priest can certainly encourage the man to turn himself in as the just thing to do, but he cannot demand it of him.

Furthermore, because Christ has deemed it appropriate that the sins of man be forgiven in this way, man should come to this sacrament freely, and not out of fear. In fact, this is definitely a sacrament of joy! However, if a penitent knew that he would be immediately punished by the priest (by turning him in to the police), it would no longer be a sacrament of joy. It would not be about forgiveness (mercy), but about justice. People would approach the sacrament out of fear, or may, in their weakened state of sin, not go at all for fear of their impending punishment.

On yet another note, while it is important for the priest to understand the sin that is being confessed so that he may offer sound council and an appropriate penance, it is not his duty to try and remember all of the sins that are confessed, which could cause him to harden his heart against a particular person. I have been to a priest and confessed a sin that I had done before. I was embarassed by it, and said, "Do you remember what I confessed last time I was here," and he had not a clue. His job is not to focus on the specific sin confessed, but merely to offer the forgiveness of Christ.

I hope that helps, some!

[DojoGrant]

Brian,

Who is more in need of forgiveness than, say, a person who has murdered a child? Who is more in need to HEAR THAT FORGIVENESS OF CHRIST spoken into their ears? And who in the world could they turn to to hear that?

If they are truly sorry for their action (which is why they'd go to Confession anyway), they are still going to be TERRIFIED of the consequences. They need a confidant. They need to say out loud what they have done and hear that forgiveness of Christ. But they WILL NOT RECEIVE IT if they know that the priest will immediately judge their action and haul them off to prison. In fact, they will feel betrayed. They will not know forgiveness, only judgement.

What happens in the Confessional is not a "conversation" between two men (or a man and a woman), it is between the penitent and the redeemer. The priest only acts in the person of Christ to be a witness to the Confession and to verbally pronounce the True forgiveness of sins. It would be like Jesus Christ coming down from Heaven and putting the man in prison. If you, as a Protestant, believe that you can confess your sins to God without a priest, and Jesus Christ does not haul you off to jail, then why should Catholics, who believe that Christ ordained us to do it through the sacrament, have to fear that WE will be put to jail? It makes no sense, and you can't have it your way but denounce the other way.

Edited July 14, 2005 by DojoGrant

[Brother Adam]

haha. Yeah, thank you Grant. I thought that it needed a response, but I am busy drafting my paper in response to Dr. Bob Griffins answers in the interview I had with him.

[Quietfire]

Thanks Grant.

oh, and Bri...it was immediate family. It is just something that I never thought I would discuss here, so Id rather not go any further than that.

[Briguy]

QF, I understand. Thanks for sharing what you did.

Hey Grant, How are you doing my friend? Hope you are well. Are you a full fledged priest now or still in the process? Thanks for the posts. They were helpful in my grasping your view point.

Grant said """""Now, in our faith tradition, the priest also must give the newly forgiven man a penance; however, if the penance is too much to bear, the forgiven man may freely ask for a different penance, and the priest is obliged to give him a different one.

Now, if you have broken the law, the just thing to do is to serve the sentence (the temporal punishment for the sin) that the law requires. However, man is still weak, even in his sanctification, and it is not easy to turn oneself in. That cannot be a penance, because that is too high of a deman on any person. The priest can certainly encourage the man to turn himself in as the just thing to do, but he cannot demand it of him."""""

Grant, first asking a person to serve a just sentance for a crime is not too much to ask. I have a good friend in prison right now. He committed a bad crime and is now serving out his sentance. He accepted full responsibility for what he did. He could have plead Temp. insanity but he did not, he plead guilty and took his sentance. He is a Christian btw. Someone who recognizes what they did and has asked God for forgiveness should want to serve a just sentance.

Second, you said a person can ask for a different penance. How many times? What if all they want is to say 100 "hail Mary's" and so they hold out for that because it is all they can handle. Is that Justice? Holy Justice?

Finally, forget about turning the murderer in. Cioncentrate on the priest just simply telling the parents what happened to their children and where the bodies are. That is the more debateable question here. Does the priest have a moral obligation? a societal one?

In Christ,
Brian

[Quietfire]

[quote name='Briguy' date='Jul 15 2005, 09:02 AM']
Finally, forget about turning the murderer in. Cioncentrate on the priest just simply telling the parents what happened to their children and where the bodies are. That is the more debateable question here. Does the priest have a moral obligation? a societal one?

In Christ,
Brian
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Think about that for a second.
You are a priest. You took a sacred oath not to repeat [i]anything[/i] heard in confession.
Now the priest goes to a family and tells them where the slain body of their beloved is, although the penitant may have given incorrect information, outright lied or whatever. Then the police get involved...how did the person obtain this information, does the priest know the penitant, should we do surveilance on the church etc.

Brian, it may be painful to understand. We have laws in this country to protect a doctor or lawyer from disclosing information on a patient or defendant. Those laws are there to protect you. You wouldnt want your doctor disclosing information about you to your friends and family if it was really personal (imagine your own scenario on that one) Same goes for that lawyer who is protecting you and defending you.
Yeah, alot of people abuse this law. But the law is there for the good of the people.

God's law is more perfect. A priest, who is an agent of God will not disclose information received in the confessional. Otherwise, as Grant said, many people would be far too scared/angry/disgusted and would no longer wish to participate in this wonderful sacrament of joy and as a result many would suffer.

I myself, would be horrified if I confessed a sin to a priest only to find out a week or two later, others outside the confessional knew of it. How could I trust that priest ever again.

As a Catholic, if I committed murder and went to a priest for advice-confession-absolution, I would hope and pray that I would have the strength to pay my penance all for my love for God. Although turning myself in would be the most logical thing to do in my mind...only because, in all honesty, I would rather pay any price now on earth than suffer eternally in Hell. But that is my Catholic mind, it is impossible to know the mind of everyone.

Pax

[TLJC]

Very true,

but maybe someone can answer me this quick question.
If the priest thinks your just confessing but your not really sorry he doesnt have to grant you a seal and can turn you into the police?

God only takes away our sins if we truly are sorry...

If someone does a crime in the eyes of the law such as drink driving but not a sin under the church or God is that a sin? If we kill someone we have taken a life though a crime of DUI and caused death so is this a sin to be confessed to even though we are serving say 20 years prison for an "earth crime"