Lord's Day

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='Jul 15 2005, 08:25 PM']Saturday evening Mass DOES fulfill Sunday obligations, P.

I was only joking with Mulls in the secular sense.  In the secular world a day IS from midnight to midnight.

That wasnt what this was about though.

Sheeeeeeeese!!  Sorry for the confusion.  I was just messing with Mulls, since its been a while since I prodded my bro.
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Sorry about that.

[scardella]

[quote name='Oik' date='Jul 15 2005, 02:19 PM']Confusion here is not to denote that the practice itse;f scandalises or confuses the faithful. When I called the practice confusing, it is meant to say that in it's self, the practice seems to be out of order in its nature.[/quote]

What do you mean, "out of order"?

[quote]In this definition, any person praying with a group is partaking in communal prayer. Why then celebrate the "Lord's Day." [/quote]

Yes, anyone praying in a group is partaking in communal prayer. Well, really, the question is "why not?" I'm just saying it's a good thing; I'm not trying to say that it should be a requirement or that it fits everyone's spirituality.

[quote]The Mass is the Holy Sacrifice, let us speak of it as what it is and not liken it to something that it is more than. This doesn't mean that the Mass is not communal (ie Communion, Church), for it is. We need to use the language of Christ and His Church.[/quote]

Ok. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is communal prayer. It is not the only form. It is the highest and nothing can replace it. There is room for other types of prayer.

[quote]Ahem...Liturgy of the Hours anyone? This is another point. Why promote obscure and little known "traditions' (as I'm not even sure Lord's Day is really even historical) when the Church has so many beautiful tradtions already?[/quote]

Liturgy of the Hours is great, but cannot fulfill the same role as Lord's Day. It is rigidly structured and has little to no opportunity for affirmations, personal reflections, etc.

[quote]The chapel, "eucharistic ministers," Charismatic benedictions, "Contemporary" music, FOP's...[/quote]

And the problem is? I admit the chapel is lacking (still maintain that it's a funds issue), and that they should use ordained ministers before extraordinary ministers. I just don't see the AAAH! value.

[quote]On this matter though, it really depends on how sensitive one is to the needs of students who do not have a Charismatic spirituality.
The traditionalists i've met on campus are at a lose and no one tends to thier spirituality. Byzantine Catholics have been told they hold heretical views or are schismatic. Maybe the Administration is just not aware of these things. Saint Gregory Palamas is thrust out and his Theology frowned upon.[/quote]

Well, I'm with the administration there. If it was present, I've managed to be oblivious to those sorts of things too.

[quote]The Divine Liturgy was said once this semester (maybe it will be more this semester).
The Latin Novus Ordo Mass seems a little redundent(sp) to me. If they use Extraordinary ministers at the Latin Novus Ordo and don't use gregorian chant, i'd just rather go to an english Novus Ordo.
The "tradtional" style Mass (11 am) has an organ, however, it is not played very well and they still have singer standing in the alter area/sanctuary with all the music equipment (there is actaully not really a sanctuary in the chapel anyway). 

The reality is  many FUS students feel alienated by the Universities exclusion of "non-charismatics."[/quote]

I have to take issue w/ your use of "exclusion." Just because it tends to cater to charismatics does not mean it consciously excludes others. FUS has a decidedly charismatic history, for good or ill. I've found that the availability of traditional style Mass has been good.

[quote]Your right. FUS is decidely not interested though. Comtemporary music coupled with guitar takes pride of place at FUS. There is something wrong with that. Comtemp. Music is used over chants.

The same rationale is used at FUS that I hear resounding in the "modernist" liturgists of our time:
"Well, gregorian Chants was comtemporary music once."

This is a failed argument. Gregorian Chant has recieve pride of place and polyphony and hymns are to be encouraged. In our times the opposite is true. Chants and hymns sit on the self.
They would get the money if they asked for it! Besides, my 11,000/semester has to go somewhere. Dr. Miravalle, Dr. Hahn and other would surely pony up some cash for it.

Money isn't the problem at FUS.
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Money is a big part of the problem. Many universities have large endowments, where they're sitting on enough so that interest significantly helps them out with budgets. FUS doesn't. That's why they call me every few months about donating $$$.

[Oik]

[quote]What do you mean, "out of order"?[/quote]

From what I have been told from household members, the Lord's Day is a mandatory part of household life. It seems to me that you are saying otherwise. I'll ask.

maybe I should start my own household and just request that a Priest do benediction/adoration with us instead of Lord's Day.


[quote]Yes, anyone praying in a group is partaking in communal prayer. Well, really, the question is "why not?" I'm just saying it's a good thing; I'm not trying to say that it should be a requirement or that it fits everyone's spirituality.[/quote]

The Lord's prayer at Mass is not communion, it is a prayer. There are many blessed devotions that are prayers and not communal prayers.

[quote]Ok. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is communal prayer. It is not the only form. It is the highest and nothing can replace it. There is room for other types of prayer.[/quote]

I'm poorly catechised(sp). I don't think of the Mass as a communal prayer, I think of it as the Holy Sacrifice of Christ in which we partake as a community.

[quote]Liturgy of the Hours is great, but cannot fulfill the same role as Lord's Day. It is rigidly structured and has little to no opportunity for affirmations, personal reflections, etc. [/quote]

Translation: Liturgy of the Hours is not a communal prayer. The reoccuring theme at FUS seems to be that if it isn't communal, we aren't interested.

I understand the urgency to get college students involved in thier Catholic faith. So what about the students at Franciscan who want contemplative devotions fostered? What about the students that want a Mass that is what the Church says and not a Mass with an undercurrent that is to "make people feel like they are participating" ?

Fr. Giles (from the Dominican House of Studies/former teacher at FUS) came and said Mass on campus. There was a girl who was doing the readings at Mass. The Mass was the normative Mass (the novus ordo).

This girl commented to me after Mass " I hope I was participating, i was trying."

The Mass was in Latin. However, it was NOVUS ORDO. She was afraid she wasn't aprticipating.

This is the kind of bias that non-charismatic students are faced with.

And on a personal note, there was even a booklet to follow along (even though it is the same Mass that is said everyday with the exception that the words are in Latin).

If anything is rigidly structured, it is the notions of those on campus that "if it isn't Charismatic, it doesn't belong."

[quote]And the problem is? I admit the chapel is lacking (still maintain that it's a funds issue), and that they should use ordained ministers before extraordinary ministers. I just don't see the AAAH! value.[/quote]

My point about FUS: Were is the accessibility to "traditional" devotion/spirituality? Call it contemplative, call it tradtional, call it normal, call it fanatic, call it old-fashioned, I don't care what you label it, where is the accessibility to it?

Why is FUS spirituality soooooo different than spirituality at Christendom. It's like night and day!



I gurantee you that if FUS let it be publicaly known that they wanted to build a beautiful chapel with all its glory and splendor, they would quickly receive donations and it could be built in three or four years. It's not a funds issue from that perspective.

Why don't they? I'm guessing that it's the old "what's wrong with this chapel(office building)?"

One has to question why the Port is more beautiful than the Chapel on campus.

Also, why have a chapel in a chapel?

Also, there is not much reverance for the Chapel. I saw a "Eucahristic Minister/helper with the Liturgy" ironing altar linens ON THE ALTAR, IN THE SANCTUARY!
:angry:

There is your AAAAHHHHH!!! value.

[quote]Well, I'm with the administration there. If it was present, I've managed to be oblivious to those sorts of things too. [/quote]

I plan on continuing my education there and getting my BA there, so maybe i'll bump into you.

[quote]I have to take issue w/ your use of "exclusion." Just because it tends to cater to charismatics does not mean it consciously excludes others. FUS has a decidedly charismatic history, for good or ill. I've found that the availability of traditional style Mass has been good. [/quote]

Is the quality of the traditional style Mass exemplary? Is it available Many times a week ? Is the choir a Schola or is it just like the other "choirs" at FUS? Is the Organ music exemplary, or is it bland, slow, and boring? Are there Extraordinary Ministers used at communion?

The EMHC aren't even delegated by a priest, on of the "Eucharistic Ministers/Helpers with the Liturgy" delegate students.

There is a big difference between making a Latin Novus ordo Mass available and fostering "traditonal" spirituality.

Where is the Sanctuary in the Chapel? Is that where the "Choir" stands? Is that where the EMHC's (6 to 15 of them) stand when they are being handed the Chalice and Patens(I think).

[Oik]

When I got to FUS, I knew that I was home. And I was, when it came to the faculty there.

I love my teachers. The program is great (both Theology and Philosophy).

When I went to Mass there, I was shocked!

I attended St. Timothy's in Mesa, Az for many years. I also helped out with LifeTeen for three years. Honestly, I was trying to escape the "Charismatic" movement.


What I found when i can to Franciscan took my by surprise...my own spirituality. I wasn't "Charismatic" or "traditional." My spirituality was a longing for the fullness of what the Church had to offer, whether is was "traditional" or "charismatic." I was interested in the Church.


I'm not in love with the Tridentine Mass. It is beautiful and glorious and experiencing it is a Sacramental in and of it's self! That's why one Pope (Pope Pius XII I think, not sure) urged Catholics to pray the Mass!

On occasion, I do drive out to Pittsburgh (40 mins. one way) to experience this beautiful Mass at St. Boniface (an indult Parish). The Church is Magnificent! It is so amazing! The Schola there is wonderful and the atmoshpere is so reverant.

This parish, though, is not my home. The tridentine Mass is wonderful however, this is not the way the Holy Spirit is leading the Church.

Honestly, part of me goes to the tridentine Mass to escape the anxiety that I get from going to Most parishes because of illict practices and "variations" that have little or no historical basis in the Church.

I'm not a covert, though sometimes I feel like one. I wasn't taught much about my Faith and so many things excite me when I learn about them or relearn about them.

There are a few people that have been my mentors (they may or may not know it). I have only met a few peopl I place my direction under when it comes to advice about the Church. They have made a lasting impression.


So, where is the Church going?

Holiness. That is what I feel Christ calls me too as a lay person.

Vatican II, I believed truly recongnized that the Church Herself was, as she has been constantly progressing through the ages, being called to an even greater holiness.

Needless to say, the implementation of Vactican II has had many ill effects.


What does all this have to do with the Charismatic movement? Everything.

Then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger in the interview/book [i]Ratzinger Report [/i] speaks about the tremendous and unexpected repsponse from the laity in such groups as Communion and Liberation, Opus Dei, Regnum Christi, and the Charismatic Movement. The Cardinal comments on the importance of such groups and the importance of fostering these groups!

Now he is the POPE! Pope Benedict XVI.

Surprisingly, many have questioned his "traditionalist" and "conservative" position.
Why? This Man is a holy man! He knows exactly what the Church is about!
This man is the Vicar of Christ on earth.

Furthermore, he is the former right hand of Pope John Paul II (the Great).

It is surprising to me that more people have not read [i]Ratzinger Report, Spirit of the Liturgy,[/i] or
[i]Salt of the Earth.[/i]

Still, the point is what does this have to do with FUS and the Lord's day?

Everything. Why are all these books available at FUS bookstore and not in practice at FUS?

You might say that these are only Pope Benedict's opinions (and in some cases, you would be right).

However, Gregorian Chant and Sacred Polyphony are not a matter of opinion, the excessive use of EMHC's are not a matter of opinon.

And especially now that the Compendium of the Cathechism of the Catholic Church has been released, not so beautiful Chapels are not a matter of opinion.

At FUS, I feel excluded, as do several others. We aren't "traditionalists" (heck some of us are Eastern Catholics), we just aren't Charismatics. We don't like FOP's, we like Benedicitons and contemplative adoration. We like Gregorian Chant and Sacred music.

So, unfortunately, we have to go to Mass at St. Peter's down the street. Or drive into Wierton to attend the Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy.

This [u]unfortunately[/u] seems to be the way it will continue to be at FUS.