Lord's Day

[qfnol31]

I'm the one who said you probably should refrain from going out to eat and stuff on Sunday. Believe me, it won't hurt my "hours" a week, just the time I have to work them.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Jul 14 2005, 06:09 AM']As I understand it, it is sundown to sundown
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Yep, sundown to sundown.

[Oik]

[quote]You cannot compare it to a healing mass...You heard it was Appalchian protestant practise...it may be... Hmmmm, sounds a little strange. However, even it was Protestant I don't see anything wrong with adapting or seeing an idea and then making it Catholic all around- thats what tradition and Catholic culture is, it comes from non-Catholic even pagan culture being restored in Christ to the fullness of truth---Lords Day is a tradition which does not perpetuate poor theological formation as you claim. I grew up doing this every Saturday evening in my family. We would dress up, not as nicely as for Mass, but nice, my sister and I used to set a table place for Jesus at the table, Dad would read chapter one of John's Gospel and lead other psalm prayers which we reponded to, which is a totally Catholic thing and seems way more jewish in its format than Protestant. We in no way saw it as a pseudo-Mass, ersatz liturgy, etc etc-No...it was family communal prayer in preperation for the Lord's Day...it is in no way replacing the Mass. Your questions seems to be asking why pray outside of Mass at all, since Lord day is only meant to increase your disposition towards the liturgy the next morning...it in no way replaces the mass but only helps prepare your heart for the real thing......where we pray ......"we look for the day when we will dwell with you.....we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ"

ps-we always understood this was NOT mass, not the eucharist, but breaking bread together is a symbol of that communion, is all...[/quote]


It is a great practice for families to share there faith together!

It is wrong to imply that I am wondering whether it is good to pray outside of Mass. It is a silly notion that Catholics aren't called to have an active prayer life (the rosary, chaplet of divine mercy, the jesus prayer, reading the Bible, ect.).

If the Lord's Day is done to "increase the diposition toward the liturgy," then it could be a noble cultural tradition.

It does seem, a bit silly to pursue a tradition that many have not heard of at a time in the history of the Church when traditions that are known are not practiced (especially one with no seemingly solid explaination of it's historical background).

[Oik]

[quote]Actually, it is an adaptation of the Jewish meal liturgies (the caburrah (sp?) or friendship meal, which is less formal than the Seder meal used at Passover and on other major feasts). Just as the caburrah was not a replacement for Temple sacrifice or even Synagogue worship, the Lord's Day celebration is not a replacement for, much less an imitation of, Mass. It is a preparation for Mass, the opening of the Lord's Day (which is why they are held on Saturday evening), a time for community, and a time for prayer. The main part of it is a Liturgy of the Word, which is a perfectly allowable (even encouraged) para-liturgical rite for meditation on Scripture outside of Mass. The breaking of the bread and passing of the wine is in imitation of the Jewish celebration.

No one is going to say that it is Mass, or that you should go to Lord's Day instead of Mass. Since it in no way portends to be a sacrament, it is a para-liturgical event, not "quasi-sacramental."

There is nothing liturgically or theologically wrong with the Lord's Day celebrations.[/quote]

The Mass is the Sacrifice and no one needs a friendship meal to prepare for it. The United States is not Israel, so the culture is different.

Franciscan University isn't a Jewish-Catholic University. Meditation on the Scripture is a great benefit to the individual, why have a seemingly confusing "breaking of the bread"?

I am not criticising the practice because people might confuse it for the Mass, I am wondering why anyone would practice it when thw Mass is available?

You want to reflect and meditate, then do it.

It seems to me, that at my experience at FUS, that there is an over-emphasis on small insignificant pratices that are not well know or are theolocially sketchy, and not enough emphasis on the true holiness of the Sacrifice of the Mass. Why is this?

The students with a traditional sense of spirituality are looked down upon. The Latin Mass is deemed divisive, the Eastern Catholics at our school are deemed outcasted and told that they are schismatics.

The music at the liturgy is decicedly "contemporary" (even though Dr. Tracey could whip up a wonderful Choir that would know an extensive number of gregorian chants, songs of polyphony, and hymns). There are Extraordinary ministers of communion used when they really aren't need.

And this too, the Lord's Day.

There are not a few people that have qalms(sp) with some of the practices at FUS.

This is such a paradox considering there are many amazing teachers there.

I wished that FUS encouraged more traditons in the Church and were respectable of it's Eastern Catholic students (which are very few).

I also wished they would build a nice chapel and have better music (there are no shortage of students with musical talents at FUS).

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Oik' date='Jul 14 2005, 09:43 PM']

You want to reflect and meditate, then do it.

It seems to me, that at my experience at FUS, that there is an over-emphasis on small insignificant pratices that are not well know or are theolocially sketchy, and not enough emphasis on the true holiness of the Sacrifice of the Mass. Why is this?

The students with a traditional sense of spirituality are looked down upon. The Latin Mass is deemed divisive, the Eastern Catholics at our school are deemed outcasted and told that they are schismatics.

The music at the liturgy is decicedly "contemporary" (even though Dr. Tracey could whip up a wonderful Choir that would know an extensive number of gregorian chants, songs of polyphony, and hymns). There are Extraordinary ministers of communion used when they really aren't need.

And this too, the Lord's Day.

There are not a few people that have qalms(sp) with some of the practices at FUS.

This is such a paradox considering there are many amazing teachers there.

I wished that FUS encouraged more traditons in the Church and were respectable of it's Eastern Catholic students (which are very few).

I also wished they would build a nice chapel and have better music (there are no shortage of students with musical talents at FUS).
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I would be willing to join the polyphony choir, yeay! LOL, although-that said! i think the music at FUS is tasteful and respectful and worshipful, although contemporary. I think you fall into an error if you think all contemporary music should be omitted from Liturgy. If it is respectful and worshipful there is no problem.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Jul 14 2005, 09:09 AM']As I understand it, it is sundown to sundown
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Exactly, thus proving my point.

[scardella]

[quote name='Oik' date='Jul 14 2005, 09:43 PM']Franciscan University isn't a Jewish-Catholic University. Meditation on the Scripture is a great benefit to the individual, why have a seemingly confusing "breaking of the bread"?[/quote]

It was never confusing to me. I don't know anyone who found it confusing.

[quote]I am not criticising the practice because people might confuse it for the Mass, I am wondering why anyone would practice it when thw Mass is available? [/quote]

The Mass is not the only form of communal prayer. I found that the Eucharist was wonderfully promoted while I was there (I graduated 2 years ago). There is a place for communal prayer outside of the liturgy. I think there was a clear understanding that Lord's Day celebrations were subordinate to the Mass and they were there to facilitate honoring the Lord's Day.

[quote]You want to reflect and meditate, then do it. [/quote]

I learned an awful lot, was called on to holiness, and grew in friendship with my household brothers through our reflections on the readings at Lord's Days. It offers a different perspective on the readings that you would never get in personal reflections, because your internal bias and blind spots do not apply to other people.

[quote]It seems to me, that at my experience at FUS, that there is an over-emphasis on small insignificant pratices that are not well know or are theolocially sketchy, and not enough emphasis on the true holiness of the Sacrifice of the Mass. Why is this?[/quote]

I have to completely disagree with you there. I don't think it has changed that much in 2 years.

[quote]The students with a traditional sense of spirituality are looked down upon. The Latin Mass is deemed divisive, the Eastern Catholics at our school are deemed outcasted and told that they are schismatics.[/quote]

Once again, I have to completely disagree. I found that most people were open to both traditional and Charismatic stuff, and I didn't detect any sort of bias against the Eastern Catholics. I actually found that those of a more traditionalist bent were the ones who were inflexable. I know I tried to embrace traditional and contemporary aspects of the Church. My household once went on retreat at a Byzantine parish, which was a wonderful experience. I also find it suspect, because on the Austrian campus, we had some students from eastern Europe there, and we had plenty of opportunity to interact with them. In Austria, there was the Akathist at least on a monthly basis, and there was a married Byzantine priest. Back at Steubie, there was also a semi-regular Divine Liturgy (once every month or two) and Novus Ordo Latin Mass. I also would have appreciated the occasional Tridentine. However, I'm completely comfortable with Festivals of Praise as well.

[quote]The music at the liturgy is decicedly "contemporary" (even though Dr. Tracey could whip up a wonderful Choir that would know an extensive number of gregorian chants, songs of polyphony, and hymns). There are Extraordinary ministers of communion used when they really aren't need.[/quote]

What's wrong with contemporary music? I enjoy both traditional, all the way back to ol' Gregory, and contemporary. I do find some of the chant extremely hard to follow, though. I can't handle 12 notes for one syllable. I think there's a place for both.

[quote]And this too, the Lord's Day.

There are not a few people that have qalms(sp) with some of the practices at FUS.

This is such a paradox considering there are many amazing teachers there.

I wished that FUS encouraged more traditons in the Church and were respectable of it's Eastern Catholic students (which are very few).

I also wished they would build a nice chapel and have better music (there are no shortage of students with musical talents at FUS).
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I agree with you on the chapel bit, and I think most would. Unfortunately, a good chapel requires quite a chunk of change. I think they'd build a new one if they had the money.

Oh, and one last thing, I think the experience you have highly depends on who you hang out with. I do know one girl who was Byzantine there, and, from what I remember, she appreciated the University, even though she missed her Byzantine parish from her home.

Edited July 15, 2005 by scardella

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jul 14 2005, 11:40 PM']I would be willing to join the polyphony choir,   yeay!  LOL, although-that said! i think the music at FUS is tasteful and respectful and worshipful, although contemporary. I think you fall into an error if you think all contemporary music should be omitted from Liturgy.  If it is respectful and worshipful there is no problem.
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I just wanted to say that Pope Benedict has said something about this.

[scardella]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Jul 15 2005, 10:21 AM']I just wanted to say that Pope Benedict has said something about this. 
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What does he have to say?

[Quietfire]

[quote]I know. You threw out a generic protestant jab so I countered. That's all.[/quote]
[quote]since I am a procrastinator by nature, during school I would always wait until Sunday night to do my homework for Monday. and because of that i would always be anxious all Sunday long because I knew I had stuff hanging over my head. to remedy this I tried to follow a friend's lead and implement a full 24 hour sabbath, starting Saturday night around 8 or so. This way I would relax, have leisure time, and be able to focus on the Lord for a full 24 hours, and wouldn't allow myself to worry about anything else until the 'sabbath' was over, 8pm Sunday night.[/quote]
[quote]Sounds nice but it doesnt end 8 pm. Maybe thats why it didnt really work for you.[/quote]
[quote]that's why i started it Saturday night at 8 pm....to have a full 24 hours. Then at 8pm on Sunday night I could go back to working and such.[/quote]
[quote]Mulls, a day is from midnight to midnight. Not 8 pm to 8 pm.[/quote]
[quote]Quietfire, the point of it was to make a sacrificial adjustment of my (and the natural) schedule to honor the Lord.[/quote]
[quote]Then why do Saturday evening masses fulfill Sunday obligations?[/quote]
[quote]haha yes!

Catholic points for me! Thanks Pal!


LOL[/quote]
[quote]As I understand it, it is sundown to sundown[/quote]
[quote]Yep, sundown to sundown.[/quote]




Gotcha. :rotfl:












But seriously Mulls, a day IS from midnight to midnight.

[Oik]

[quote]It was never confusing to me. I don't know anyone who found it confusing.[/quote]

Confusion here is not to denote that the practice itse;f scandalises or confuses the faithful. When I called the practice confusing, it is meant to say that in it's self, the practice seems to be out of order in its nature.

Please see the very next line where you quote me saying that I am not criticising the practice because it is confused for the Mass.

[quote]The Mass is not the only form of communal prayer. I found that the Eucharist was wonderfully promoted while I was there (I graduated 2 years ago). There is a place for communal prayer outside of the liturgy. I think there was a clear understanding that Lord's Day celebrations were subordinate to the Mass and they were there to facilitate honoring the Lord's Day.[/quote]

Please re-read where you quoted me on this.

In this definition, any person praying with a group is partaking in communal prayer. Why then celebrate the "Lord's Day."

This of course poitns out my exact crticism of the Lord's Day:

[quote]The Mass is not the only form of communal prayer.[/quote]

And there you have it.

The Mass is the Holy Sacrifice, let us speak of it as what it is and not liken it to something that it is more than. This doesn't mean that the Mass is not communal (ie Communion, Church), for it is. We need to use the language of Christ and His Church.

[quote] I learned an awful lot, was called on to holiness, and grew in friendship with my household brothers through our reflections on the readings at Lord's Days. It offers a different perspective on the readings that you would never get in personal reflections, because your internal bias and blind spots do not apply to other people.[/quote]

Ahem...Liturgy of the Hours anyone? This is another point. Why promote obscure and little known "traditions' (as I'm not even sure Lord's Day is really even historical) when the Church has so many beautiful tradtions already?

[quote] Ihave to completely disagree with you there. I don't think it has changed that much in 2 years.[/quote]

The chapel, "eucharistic ministers," Charismatic benedictions, "Contemporary" music, FOP's...

On this matter though, it really depends on how sensitive one is to the needs of students who do not have a Charismatic spirituality.

[quote]Once again, I have to completely disagree. I found that most people were open to both traditional and Charismatic stuff, and I didn't detect any sort of bias against the Eastern Catholics. I actually found that those of a more traditionalist bent were the ones who were inflexable. I know I tried to embrace traditional and contemporary aspects of the Church. My household once went on retreat at a Byzantine parish, which was a wonderful experience. I also find it suspect, because on the Austrian campus, we had some students from eastern Europe there, and we had plenty of opportunity to interact with them. In Austria, there was the Akathist at least on a monthly basis, and there was a married Byzantine priest. Back at Steubie, there was also a semi-regular Divine Liturgy (once every month or two) and Novus Ordo Latin Mass. I also would have appreciated the occasional Tridentine. However, I'm completely comfortable with Festivals of Praise as well.[/quote]

The traditionalists i've met on campus are at a lose and no one tends to thier spirituality. Byzantine Catholics have been told they hold heretical views or are schismatic. Maybe the Administration is just not aware of these things. Saint Gregory Palamas is thrust out and his Theology frowned upon.

I think it is wonderful that your household was able to attend a retreat at a Byzantine Parish.

The Divine Liturgy was said once this semester (maybe it will be more this semester).
The Latin Novus Ordo Mass seems a little redundent(sp) to me. If they use Extraordinary ministers at the Latin Novus Ordo and don't use gregorian chant, i'd just rather go to an english Novus Ordo.
The "tradtional" style Mass (11 am) has an organ, however, it is not played very well and they still have singer standing in the alter area/sanctuary with all the music equipment (there is actaully not really a sanctuary in the chapel anyway).

The reality is many FUS students feel alienated by the Universities exclusion of "non-charismatics."

[quote]What's wrong with contemporary music? I enjoy both traditional, all the way back to ol' Gregory, and contemporary. I do find some of the chant extremely hard to follow, though. I can't handle 12 notes for one syllable. I think there's a place for both.[/quote]

Your right. FUS is decidely not interested though. Comtemporary music coupled with guitar takes pride of place at FUS. There is something wrong with that. Comtemp. Music is used over chants.

The same rationale is used at FUS that I hear resounding in the "modernist" liturgists of our time:
"Well, gregorian Chants was comtemporary music once."

This is a failed argument. Gregorian Chant has recieve pride of place and polyphony and hymns are to be encouraged. In our times the opposite is true. Chants and hymns sit on the self.

[quote]I agree with you on the chapel bit, and I think most would. Unfortunately, a good chapel requires quite a chunk of change. I think they'd build a new one if they had the money.[/quote]

They would get the money if they asked for it! Besides, my 11,000/semester has to go somewhere. Dr. Miravalle, Dr. Hahn and other would surely pony up some cash for it.

Money isn't the problem at FUS.

[Oik]

[quote]I would be willing to join the polyphony choir,    yeay!  LOL, although-that said! i think the music at FUS is tasteful and respectful and worshipful, although contemporary. I think you fall into an error if you think all contemporary music should be omitted from Liturgy.  If it is respectful and worshipful there is no problem.[/quote]

I'm not a traditionalist, so your barking up the wrong tree. I have been involved with the Charismatic movement in Phoenix, AZ for four years.

[Semperviva]

...i guess i beat you
i've been involved with the charismatic movement for 20 years, LOL...
i don't label myself as such, but I am involved in it and see its strengths as [i]very [/i]strong and healthful for the Church Edited July 15, 2005 by Semperviva

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='Jul 15 2005, 01:31 PM']Gotcha.  :rotfl:
But seriously Mulls, a day IS from midnight to midnight. 
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But would that mean that Saturday evening masses do not fulfill Sunday obligations? Literally, midnight to midnight [b]is[/b] one day, but I don't think we have to take it so literally when it comes to more spiritual matters.

[Quietfire]

Saturday evening Mass DOES fulfill Sunday obligations, P.

I was only joking with Mulls in the secular sense. In the secular world a day IS from midnight to midnight.

That wasnt what this was about though.

Sheeeeeeeese!! Sorry for the confusion. I was just messing with Mulls, since its been a while since I prodded my bro.