Democracy in the Church

[peach_cube]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 11 2005, 03:59 PM']
23.  That the Roman pontiff, if he have been canonically ordained, is undoubtedly made a saint by the merits of St. Peter; St. Ennodius, bishop of Pavia, bearing witness, and many holy fathers agreeing with him. As is contained in the decrees of St. Symmachus the pope.
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Of course I checked this.

The translation I have (from [i]Dictatus Papae Gregorii VII,[/i] trans. by E. Lewis, [i] Medieval Political Ideas [/i] (New York: Knopf, 1954), Vol II, pp. 380-381.) differs ever so slightly from your translation.

23. That the Roman pontiff, if he has been canonically ordained , is indubitably made holy by the merits of the blessed Peter...

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jul 11 2005, 05:59 PM']That has never been in question.  Well, except by you.  Informed Catholics know what an imprimatur and a Nihil Obstat are all about.  Don't turn this into something other than what it is.....oh wait, I forgot who I was talking to.

LittleLes, you are a twisty noodle.
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Thank you...



I'm still trying to figure out HOW my response to the question of "right and wrong determined by popular vote among Catholics" got turned into some argument over the Catholic Church's moral teachings and the issue of slavery. The simple quip about democratic votes regarding laws of physics was a more relevant response.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='Jul 11 2005, 08:57 PM']Thank you...



I'm still trying to figure out HOW my response to the question of "right and wrong determined by popular vote among Catholics" got turned into some argument over the Catholic church's moral teachings and slavery. The quip about democratic votes regarding laws of physics was more relevant than all that garbage.
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Welcome to LittleLes land. For LittleLes, [b]everything[/b] gets turned into an argument over the Church's moral teachings and slavery. Either that or an attack on the reliability of Scripture. He just endlessly repeats the same things over and over in a myriad of different threads.

Like a broken record. Sad.

[Ash Wednesday]

And it plays a lot of songs about [color=orange]CORN![/color]

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

This has been the

Worst
LittleLes Thread
Evar

[LittleLes]

[quote name='peach_cube' date='Jul 11 2005, 06:29 PM']Of course I checked this.  

The translation I have (from [i]Dictatus Papae Gregorii VII,[/i] trans. by E. Lewis, [i] Medieval Political Ideas [/i] (New York: Knopf, 1954), Vol II, pp. 380-381.) differs ever so slightly from your translation. 

23. That the Roman pontiff, if he has been canonically ordained , is indubitably made holy by the merits of the blessed Peter...
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RESPONSE:

With all due respect to Mr. Ewart Lewis, his is an inaccurate and very incomplete translation.

From the Medieval Sourcebook (on the web) we have:

"That the Roman pontiff, if he have been canonically ordained, is undoubtedly made a saint by the merits of St. Peter; St. Ennodius, bishop of Pavia, bearing witness, and many holy fathers agreeing with him. As is contained in the decrees of St. Symmachus the pope."

This is from the Fordham University History web site. There are many translations of Dictatue papae on the web and they all read the same as the above. See also Hanover, Juniata, Northpark universities, etc.

Perhaps you might want to check the biography of Mr. Ewart Lewis and see if any theological persuasion is involved.

[Aloysius]

in most languages the word for "saint" and the word for "holy" are the same thing. he is clearly not talking about a cannonized saint because by definition those are people who are in heaven (i.e. you have to be dead). translating it "holy" gets accross the meaning of the original text much better.

[quote]Quod Romanus pontifex, si canonice fuerit ordinatus, meritis beati Petri indubitanter [b]effecitur sanctus[/b] testante sancto Ennodio Papiensi episcopo ei multis sanctis patribus faventibus, sicut in decretis beati Symachi pape continetur.[/quote]

effecitur sanctus literally means something along the lines of "is effected with holiness"

wise up and do real research rather than all your second hand sources. I admit it can be confusing if the first translation you used made you think that, but when another translation was shown you claimed without any grounds whatsoever that it was an incomplete translation

[peach_cube]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 12 2005, 12:25 AM']RESPONSE:

With all due respect to Mr. Ewart Lewis, his is an inaccurate and very incomplete translation.

From the Medieval Sourcebook (on the web) we have:

"That the Roman pontiff, if he have been canonically ordained, is undoubtedly made a saint by the merits of St. Peter; St. Ennodius, bishop of Pavia, bearing witness, and many holy fathers agreeing with him. As is contained in the decrees of St. Symmachus the pope."

This is from the Fordham University History web site. There are many translations of Dictatue papae on the web and  they all read the same as the above. See also Hanover, Juniata, Northpark universities, etc.

Perhaps you might want to check the biography of Mr. Ewart Lewis and see if any theological persuasion is involved. 
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Of course you mean [b]Mrs.[/b] Ewart Lewis.

From what I have gathered it is a very well respected translation, enough to be used by Historians at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Oxford. But what do they know, Leslie has spoken, the translation is [i] inaccurate and very incomplete [/i]. :bugeyes:

Edited July 12, 2005 by peach_cube

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jul 11 2005, 06:01 PM']trolling a dead topic again.....typical.....
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RESPONSE:

The evidence of Churchs approval of moral legitimacy chattel slavery is indeed irrefutable, and it just won't go away. Even when trying to dismiss it as a "dead" topic it retains its probative value.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jul 11 2005, 06:03 PM']Cardinals are not necessarily bishops.....sheesh....more inconsistencies....
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RESPONSE:

By and large they are. But the issue is who appoints them. Perhaps you overlooked that.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 11 2005, 09:04 PM']Welcome to LittleLes land.  For LittleLes, [b]everything[/b] gets turned into an argument over the Church's moral teachings and slavery.  Either that or an attack on the reliability of Scripture.  He just endlessly repeats the same things over and over in a myriad of different threads.

Like a broken record.  Sad.
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RESPONSE:

Please note that my thread on the the contradictions in scripture because of the many writers and different time in which it was written was closed by Kilroy , since there were no rebuttals to the evidence I presented.

Simnply by comparing the different passages themselves proved the point.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 11 2005, 10:31 PM']in most languages the word for "saint" and the word for "holy" are the same thing.  he is clearly not talking about a cannonized saint because by definition those are people who are in heaven (i.e. you have to be dead).  translating it "holy" gets accross the meaning of the original text much better.
effecitur sanctus literally means something along the lines of "is effected with holiness"

wise up and do real research rather than all your second hand sources.  I admit it can be confusing if the first translation you used made you think that, but when another translation was shown you claimed without any grounds whatsoever that it was an incomplete translation
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RESPONSE:

Not at all. A saint is suppose to be a holy man, but not all holy men become saints. As in English, there is usually a different word for each. In this case Latin was the original language in which the passage was written

Indeed, I have demonstrated that Lewis' translation was incomplete. He dropped the names of the witnesses. I wonder why?

But nice try. Pope Gregory VII said what he said and then offered a list of others who had said the same thing.

But the larger view is that both his remarks about automatic sainthood for popes and the line about all the princes having to kiss his feet was an undisguised claim of person power.

That was the point.

[jasJis]

[quote]But the larger view is that both his remarks about automatic sainthood for popes and the line about all the princes having to kiss his feet was an undisguised claim of person power. [/quote] I think you meant 'personal power'. But that is your SUBJECTIVE analysis. The more accurate analysis would be consistent with what the Church and Popes have said they are. Princes kissing the feet of the Pope means that Earthly power or authority is indirectly derived from God so it is subordinate to the more clear and direct instances of Divine Authority on Earth, which is the Church and those in Apostolic succession.

[color=orange][b]CORN[/b][/color]

[Cam42]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 12 2005, 07:11 AM']RESPONSE:

The evidence of Churchs approval of moral legitimacy chattel slavery is indeed irrefutable, and it just won't go away. Even when trying to dismiss it as a "dead" topic it retains its probative value.
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There is no value to this argument. It had been debunked long before you brought it up. Les, you need to just let it go....LET IT GO!!!!

You have lost. This isn't a matter of pride, but perhaps you don't understand that.

[Cam42]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 12 2005, 07:13 AM']RESPONSE:

By and large they are. But the issue is who appoints them. Perhaps you overlooked that.
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No, that is not what is at issue. I responded to what you assumed. Remember, you said:
[quote name='LittleLes @ Jul 11 2005' date=' 11:33 AM']RESPONSE:

And who appoints the cardinals from among favored bishops?[/quote]

So, I was responding to exactly what you were discussing. Avery Cardinal Dulles comes to mind; not a bishop. There are others. Changing your meanings again? hmmmmm?