Cam42 Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 10 2005, 11:23 AM']RESPONSE: The Catholic Encyclopedia has a lengthy biography on Pope Leo I the Great. This is from "Saints Alive", a biogrpahy of Pope Leo I by Fr. Robert McNamara. " History has attached the adjective to only three popes. The first of them was St. Leo I, Father and Doctor of the Church. Leo's early background is obscure. When we first encounter him as a cleric of the papal court in the early fifth century, he is already an influential theologian, administrator and diplomat. In the year 440 Leo was sent to Gaul by Pope Sixtus III to reconcile two Roman generals. While he was on this mission Sixtus died, and Leo was elected to succeed him." " In dealing with church administration, Pope Leo was firm and decisive: he had the duty to supervise all the churches, East and West. (In fact, it was Leo the Great who first developed clearly the theology of the primacy that the bishops of Rome exercise throughout Christianity.)" NOTE! And as Vladimir Suloviev noted: "Believing as he did that true supreme authority of Peter resided permanently in the Roman Church, St. Leo could not regard himself otherwise than as 'the ruler of the Christian world' responsible for the peace and good order of all the Churches. (The designation given him in the Constitution of the Emperor Valentinian III, v. Works I, 637). Constant attention to this huge task was for him a religious obligation. " [right][snapback]638357[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Are you seriously trying to give this theolgical and historical credence? It is a reflection of a priest in a parish bulletin in Rochester, New York. You are pass this off as authoritative? No way. The diocese of Rochester is not exactly known for it's orthodoxy nor is this reflection a definitive statement on the papacy of Leo the Great. Here is the [url="http://www.stthomasirondequoit.com/SaintsAlive/id610.htm"]link[/url]. Interesting to note: Fr. McNamara himself is not above reproach in Saint's Alive. [quote name='Ellen Brannin' date=' St. Thomas the Apostle Secretary']Meanwhile, Father McNamara has been impressed to receive correspondence from England as well as Italy. In fact, a relative of Blessed Pier Giorgio Frassati (1901-1925), who was beatified in 1990, e-mailed from Italy to point out that a Saints Alive column on Blessed Frassati contained errors. Father McNamara, who explained that his sources had been inaccurate, created a revised version. [/quote] Phatcatholic....have at it....this is gonna be fun for you. LittleLes, again, you are being absurd. Now how about proof from something other than a reflection of a parish priest. We need some solid theological and historical proof. Incidentally, the Catholic Encyclopedia will not do in this instance. How about you try something really interesting and use authentic scholarship. Remember we all know how to use the computer and we will check your sources.....this ain't the dark ages son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Jul 10 2005, 11:35 AM'][quote]For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church [of Rome], on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolic tradition has been preserved continuously by those who exist everywhere. --St. Irenaeus, "Against Heresies", Book III, Chapter III Circa AD 175[/quote] Gotta love that second century early Church democracy. [right][snapback]638359[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Didn't you get the Memo? St. Irenaeus is not historical enough....too modern..... :crackup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted July 10, 2005 Author Share Posted July 10, 2005 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Jul 10 2005, 09:54 AM']What about the Johannine form of a Church? That's the one that won out. The reason why? It's better against heresies. [right][snapback]638341[/snapback][/right] [/quote] RESPONSE: Wasn't it the Pauline form that "won out."? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted July 10, 2005 Author Share Posted July 10, 2005 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Jul 10 2005, 09:55 AM']By the way, LittleLes, you are just using apologetic verses. I personally don't care much for apologetices, whether Catholic or not, because it lacks some part of the truth in it. [right][snapback]638342[/snapback][/right] [/quote] RESPONSE: We can probably agree on that to some degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted July 10, 2005 Author Share Posted July 10, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Jul 10 2005, 10:35 AM']Gotta love that second century early Church democracy. [right][snapback]638359[/snapback][/right] [/quote] RESPONSE: Actually disagreeing with anything Roman at that time one did at one's peril! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 "Truth is not decieded by a majority vote." --Pope Benedict XVI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted July 10, 2005 Author Share Posted July 10, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Jul 10 2005, 10:41 AM'] Incidentally, the Catholic Encyclopedia will not do in this instance. How about you try something really interesting and use authentic scholarship. Remember we all know how to use the computer and we will check your sources.....this ain't the dark ages son. [right][snapback]638362[/snapback][/right] [/quote] RESPONSE: Please do check my sources. Are you claiming that the Catholic Encyclopedia with all its imprimaturs isn't "authentic" Catholic scholarship? Have you told the bishop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted July 10, 2005 Author Share Posted July 10, 2005 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='Jul 10 2005, 11:52 AM']"Truth is not decieded by a majority vote." --Pope Benedict XVI [right][snapback]638388[/snapback][/right] [/quote] RESPONSE: I agree completely. That's why I find Phatmass Phorum's polls so meaningless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted July 10, 2005 Author Share Posted July 10, 2005 Actually a limited democracy still existed for about half of the Church's history in the popular election of Church leaders. Council of Toledo 633 "He whom the clergy and people of his own city have not elected, and whom neither the authority of the metropolitan nor the consent of the provincial bishops has chosen - he shall not be a bishop." And, Pope Leo IX, Synod of Rheims, 1049 "Bishops are to be elected by the clergy and people." But then the laity lost the right to vote! Second Lateran Council, 1139 "We forbid under anathema the canons of the episcopal see to exclude religious men from the election following the death of a bishop...ause if an election is held with these religious persons, where this is done without their knowledge and consent, it is null and void." But then religious men lost the vote too! Actually, I haven't received a ballot to vote for the last three local bishops. Do you think I have to reregister to vote? Now the Pope appoints as bishops men personally loyal to him. And if they change their mind, they can always be transferred out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted July 11, 2005 Author Share Posted July 11, 2005 James Carroll, writing in the Boston Globe in an article drawing generalizations about Church structure and the sex abuse scandal, reached the following conclusion. A bit melodramatic, but probably more or less true. "Here is the lesson: A power structure that is accountable only to itself will always end by abusing the powerless. Even then, it will, paternalistically, ask to be trusted to repair the damage. Never again. Not only the discredited Cardinal Law must go, in other words, but the whole system that produced him. Full democratic reform is the Catholic Church's only hope. If we can take the body of Christ in hand, we can take the church in hand, too." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateo el Feo Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 Since James Carroll is criticizing, I wonder if he could defend a position that the "power structure" of the Boston Globe is any more democratic than the Catholic Church. Was he hired by a majority vote of the Boston Globe subscribers? Is he leading by his own example? Probably not. As long as the anti-Catholic propoganda soothes the ears of those who want to hear it, the flagrant hypocrisy of the author probably doesn't matter much. It's always easier to criticize others. Heaven forbid we look in the mirror every now and then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peach_cube Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 10 2005, 02:11 PM']Actually a limited democracy still existed for about half of the Church's history in the popular election of Church leaders. Council of Toledo 633 "He whom the clergy and people of his own city have not elected, and whom neither the authority of the metropolitan nor the consent of the provincial bishops has chosen - he shall not be a bishop." And, Pope Leo IX, Synod of Rheims, 1049 "Bishops are to be elected by the clergy and people." But then the laity lost the right to vote! Second Lateran Council, 1139 "We forbid under anathema the canons of the episcopal see to exclude religious men from the election following the death of a bishop...ause if an election is held with these religious persons, where this is done without their knowledge and consent, it is null and void." But then religious men lost the vote too! Actually, I haven't received a ballot to vote for the last three local bishops. Do you think I have to reregister to vote? Now the Pope appoints as bishops men personally loyal to him. And if they change their mind, they can always be transferred out. [right][snapback]638414[/snapback][/right] [/quote] And why do you think that they lost the right to vote (both laymen and religious)? I am sure Mr. Carrol needs a history lesson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 10 2005, 08:23 AM']RESPONSE: The Catholic Encyclopedia has a lengthy biography on Pope Leo I the Great. This is from "Saints Alive", a biogrpahy of Pope Leo I by Fr. Robert McNamara. " History has attached the adjective to only three popes. The first of them was St. Leo I, Father and Doctor of the Church. Leo's early background is obscure. When we first encounter him as a cleric of the papal court in the early fifth century, he is already an influential theologian, administrator and diplomat. In the year 440 Leo was sent to Gaul by Pope Sixtus III to reconcile two Roman generals. While he was on this mission Sixtus died, and Leo was elected to succeed him." " In dealing with church administration, Pope Leo was firm and decisive: he had the duty to supervise all the churches, East and West. (In fact, it was Leo the Great who first developed clearly the theology of the primacy that the bishops of Rome exercise throughout Christianity.)" NOTE! And as Vladimir Suloviev noted: "Believing as he did that true supreme authority of Peter resided permanently in the Roman Church, St. Leo could not regard himself otherwise than as 'the ruler of the Christian world' responsible for the peace and good order of all the Churches. (The designation given him in the Constitution of the Emperor Valentinian III, v. Works I, 637). Constant attention to this huge task was for him a religious obligation. " [right][snapback]638357[/snapback][/right] [/quote] As I'm sure you are aware, three quotations are not proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 10 2005, 12:58 PM']RESPONSE: Please do check my sources. Are you claiming that the Catholic Encyclopedia with all its imprimaturs isn't "authentic" Catholic scholarship? Have you told the bishop? [right][snapback]638399[/snapback][/right] [/quote] No, I am saying that the Catholic Encyclopedia isn't a source for scholarly proof. It isn't any moreso than using an Encylopedia Britannica to prove the theory of relativity. And incidentally, just because something has an imprimatur doesn't mean that it is a definitive teaching source. It is simply free from doctrinal error. Sheesh. Also, nice to see that you are spamming your own thread....you need to let others respond......shotgunning your threads will get it shut down quickly.....have you not learned that yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 why not have all catholics vote on what is right and what is wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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