Therapy and Psychology

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Sammy Blaze' date='Jul 13 2005, 01:20 AM']photo,
sorry for the misunderstanding, not meant to offend, thanks for the clarification, had one of those 'duh' moments.

and DJ,
here's the program I'm talkin about, not seminary but a grad program  [URL=http://www.stmarytx.edu/grad/counseling/?  go=pastoral_counseling]St. Mary's [/URL]
I hope you only take my comment for what it states, and nothing more.  If there is something seriously wrong with the program and programs like it they should know why i will not be attending their school
also though, I fail to see the atrocity with using counseling methods to reconnect, re-establish families and individuals with a strong emphasis on Catholic ministry.  You obviously feel strongly about the subject, hopefully you can clarify what you mean.

AMDG
~S.
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Welll I think I put out my initial objections in my first post on this thread, it is atrocious that a materialist view of reality would be taught in a Catholic institution. This is where I think there is a major problem Counciling was aroungd long before modern psychology, one does not need to understand the psychobabble of the modern field inorder to council people, in fact since the modern psychological system is founded on the false premise of materialism it is in fact a detrement to genuine councilling.

[Carrie]

[quote]1 Psychology is Materialist it contends that the personality is in the Brain rather than the Soul, as such it at the very least butchers the soul, and at most ( and most often) denies the soul all together. This is logical extention of the Duelist " ghost in the machine" idea of Decarte but has moved from relegating the soul to support work and being a score card to simply rejecting it all together. This portion I contend requires Psychotherapy to be rejected by all faithful catholics.
1a. As the mind and Will are facualties of the Soul and not the Brain
no organic problem can affect the Will [/quote]

One major problem I have with this is that you assume all psychologists come from a materialistic point of view. You claim that psychologists do not believe that the mind is a faculty of the soul (refer to suciide thread). But that is not the case. Aloysius was gracious enough to explain this more eloquently than I. Please refer to the suicide thread.

[quote]2. Modern Psychology rejects the concepts of right and wrong as absolutes and embraces relativistic notions of morality.[/quote]

You're joking right? I'd like to know where you got this from, as I find this personally offensive.

[quote]3. Modern Psychology rejects the notion that sin causes physhological disrders which is supported by scripture and Tradition -- this is not to say that all such problems are directly contengent on the sin of the afflicted but sin is the root cause of it as it is with all the evils of the world, further sin can and often does directly cause psychological disfuction in the sinner. [/quote]

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you here. Not all psychological disorders are due to sin.

When a child has been molested and is therefore extremely depressed, what sin has this child committed?

When a man has been sent to war and now has PTSD because he witnessed his best friend being blown to bits, what sin has this man committed?

When a child is diagnosed with Autism, what sin has this child committed?

[quote]4. Pscychologist often interfer in the role of Priest giving advise about issues of a spiritual nature -- sex, marriage ect-- and specificly ( and I have seen this personally ) interfering with those who need a priest to deal with issues of a demonic nature. Demons are real andthose tormented by them either obsessed or possessed are not crazy and don't need a Psychotherapist they need an Exorcist. [/quote]

Again, you're generalizing. There are psychologists who are full of faith and will readily say that God is the first and foremost source of all healing. But, God provides tools to his children, that are there to support them and help them through their journey.

Why is it so impossible to believe that a person can consult both a priest and therapist for the maximum support available?

[quote]5. Modern Psychology is inherintly a child of the modern attempt to " understand " everything, somethings cannot be understood the human mind being a product of spirit is one of those things, moder psychology is arrogant at best and trying to be " like to God " at worst.[/quote]

Is that what psychology is attempting to do? Wow, I must have missed that in Psych 101.

Psychology and therapy, when combined with faith, prayer, and GOd can be a powerful healing tool. Don't minimize that because you don't understand it!

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Jul 13 2005, 01:58 PM']One major problem I have with this is that you assume all psychologists come from a materialistic point of view.  You claim that psychologists do not believe that the mind is a faculty of the soul (refer to suciide thread).  But that is not the case.  Aloysius was gracious enough to explain this more eloquently than I.  Please refer to the suicide thread. 
You're joking right?  I'd like to know where you got this from, as I find this personally offensive.
I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you here.  Not all psychological disorders are due to sin. 

When a child has been molested and is therefore extremely depressed, what sin has this child committed?

When a man has been sent to war and now has PTSD because he witnessed his best friend being blown to bits, what sin has this man committed?

When a child is diagnosed with Autism, what sin has this child committed?
Again, you're generalizing.  There are psychologists who are full of faith and will readily say that God is the first and foremost source of all healing.  But, God provides tools to his children, that are there to support them and help them through their journey. 

Why is it so impossible to believe that a person can consult both a priest and therapist for the maximum support available? 
Is that what psychology is attempting to do?  Wow, I must have missed that in Psych 101.

Psychology and therapy, when combined with faith, prayer, and GOd can be a powerful healing tool.  Don't minimize that because you don't understand it!
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I really don't have time to respond fully to this I have already made one long post here today and I shouldn't have done that so I will make this short and to the point, I'll make a more thorough reponse tomorrow.

[quote]You're joking right?  I'd like to know where you got this from, as I find this personally offensive.[/quote]

No I'm not Joking I find it humorous that you can even type that statment. I get that Idea from numerous acticles and Papers I have read concerning the subject. Of the top of my head have you looked into the Neuropsychologist studies on morality, I think they where in Princeton, shouldn't be too hard to find, Psychology definantly does NOt ascribe to Ideas of Right and wrong. Frankly it cannot without betraying it's claim to be a Science.
[quote]I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you here.  Not all psychological disorders are due to sin. 

When a child has been molested and is therefore extremely depressed, what sin has this child committed?

When a man has been sent to war and now has PTSD because he witnessed his best friend being blown to bits, what sin has this man committed?

When a child is diagnosed with Autism, what sin has this child committed?[/quote]

You don't read very carefully do you --go back and reread what I said and then please respond agian.


[quote]Again, you're generalizing. There are psychologists who are full of faith and will readily say that God is the first and foremost source of all healing. But, God provides tools to his children, that are there to support them and help them through their journey.

Why is it so impossible to believe that a person can consult both a priest and therapist for the maximum support available? [/quote]

First I said often so I readily concede this is a generalization, but Generalizations are valid arguments-- in general Psycologist interfer with the role of Priest, particularly in matters of Sex and they do very readily interfere with those who need to have spiritual warefare done for them when there are demonic entities involved, perhaps you know a psychologist who would intertain the notion that someone was not Schizophrinic but instead was demonicly obsessed, but I have never met them and as I siad this particular issue is one I have had personal experiance with.


[quote]Is that what psychology is attempting to do? Wow, I must have missed that in Psych 101.

Psychology and therapy, when combined with faith, prayer, and GOd can be a powerful healing tool. Don't minimize that because you don't understand it![/quote]

Yes you must have, I guess they didn't require you to take a course on the Philosophy of Science. Or are you denying that Psychology is a Science. Now if you deny that than perhaps you can argue that it is not part of Modernities attempt to understand EVERYTHING, but unless you are going to give that up you are forced to concede that that is the Goal. However since the Mind is not a Physical thing it cannot be understood by science and the quest of Psychology is a false one.

[Sammy Blaze]

here's an interesting website i stumbled upon, since this debate has peaked my interests in the fusion of Catholic Theology and Psychotherapy
[url="http://www.ipsciences.edu/www/docs/101.15/"]http://www.ipsciences.edu/www/docs/101.15/[/url]
an actual Master's and Doctoral program with Catholic Theology as its foundation
and here's the site review from Catholic Culture
[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/sites/site_view.cfm?recnum=1471"]http://www.catholicculture.org/sites/site_...cfm?recnum=1471[/url]

just some websites relevant to the discussion
~S.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Sammy Blaze' date='Jul 13 2005, 11:45 PM']here's an interesting website i stumbled upon, since this debate has peaked my interests in the fusion of Catholic Theology and Psychotherapy
[url="http://www.ipsciences.edu/www/docs/101.15/"]http://www.ipsciences.edu/www/docs/101.15/[/url]   
an actual Master's and Doctoral program with Catholic Theology as its foundation
and here's the site review from Catholic Culture
[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/sites/site_view.cfm?recnum=1471"]http://www.catholicculture.org/sites/site_...cfm?recnum=1471[/url]

just some websites relevant to the discussion
~S.
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I'll check them out tomorrow.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jul 12 2005, 07:15 PM']Okay I don't have much time and will notuntil thursday at which time I will make a better more complete response.

First I would like to coment that thisentire thread was loaded from the begining Therapy is not objected to by myself or I think by anyone in this forum as Therapy is the treatment of illness or disablity; what you are asking about is Psychotherapy which is a completly differant animal. [/quote]

Yes I was being sooo manipulative in my wording. Clearly I was trying to include physical therapy into the debate.

Are you kidding me?
[quote] Further my objections are with modern Psychology ( that developed in the last say 100 years)  they include ( but are not limited too) the following.
1 Psychology is Materialist it contends that the personality is in the Brain rather than the Soul,  as such it at the very least butchers the soul, and at most ( and most often) denies the soul all together. This is logical extention of the Duelist " ghost in the machine" idea  of Decarte but has moved from relegating the soul to support work and being a score card to simply rejecting it all together. This portion I contend requires Psychotherapy  to be rejected by all faithful catholics.
1a. As the mind and Will are facualties of the Soul and not the Brain
      no organic problem can affect the Will 
[/quote]

I've been doing some research on the Church's view on this DJ and maybe you can share some documentation. Everything that I've found talks about the clear distinctions between the mind and the soul.

[quote]2. Modern  Psychology rejects the concepts of right and wrong as absolutes and embraces relativistic notions of morality.[/quote]

No it embraces the idea of learning and understanding dysfunction. Its methods deal with ethics and not necessarily morality. There is a distinct difference there.

And please show me one field of science that deals with morality and not ethics?

[quote]
3. Modern Psychology rejects the notion that sin causes physhological disrders which is supported by scripture and Tradition -- this is not to say that all such problems are directly contengent on the sin of the afflicted but sin is the root cause of it as it is with all the evils of the world, further sin can and  often does directly cause psychological disfuction in the sinner.
[/quote]

Modern Science rejects the notion that sin causes physical disorders. Yet that is also supported by scripture and Tradition. A doctor would probably have to stand before a board of his peers if he prescribed "stop sinning" to a cancer patient. Why because fields of science do not deal with issues of morality. Individual doctors and scientists do but not the field in general.


[quote] 4. Pscychologist often interfer in the role of Priest  giving advise about issues  of a spiritual nature -- sex,  marriage ect-- and specificly ( and I have seen this personally ) interfering with those who need a priest  to deal with issues of a demonic nature. Demons are real andthose tormented by them either obsessed or possessed  are not crazy and don't need a  Psychotherapist they need an Exorcist.
[/quote]

Medical doctors do the exact same thing. Yet I have never seen anyone (including yourself) make sweeping generalizations against the science of medicine.

Is it better to go to a Catholic doctor? Yes

Is it better to go to a Catholic therapist? Yes

[quote]
5. Modern Psychology is inherintly a child of the modern attempt to " understand " everything, somethings cannot be understood the human mind being a product of spirit is one of those things, moder psychology is arrogant at best and trying to be " like to God " at worst.
I will continue with a more thourgh response to this later.
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And yet the Church recognizes the field of psychology and its contributions even though you don't.


I know you said you would have more time today. Perhaps you can give some examples to demonstrate your points

[cmotherofpirl]

I always love when amateurs [those outside a profession] try to tell professionals [in this case, actual psychologists and therapists and social workers ] that they haven't a clue.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jul 14 2005, 01:32 PM']I always love when amateurs [those outside a profession] try to tell professionals [in this case, actual psychologists and therapists and social workers ] that they haven't a clue.


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I never said mental health professionals don't have a clue. I just said that they shouldn't be manipulative, give people unsound advice, and emotionally/sexually abuse their clients.

I think people need to question the profession of psychotherapy and not take whatever the APA / your therapist / your psych professor says as Universal Truth.

I think American society puts the Church under careful scrutiny, but does not question psychology. Therapy won't save you from sin, and it won't replace your need for love and acceptance. I know it sounds stupid, but a LOT of people in this world are trying to find love, they're trying to find the Truth, they're trying to find an answer, so they go to therapists. They don't go to Church, they don't go to God. You can say what you want about Catholic therapy, but it is uncommon, and unless you go to a Catholic college no one really talks about it in academia.

[Carrie]

[quote]And yet the Church recognizes the field of psychology and its contributions even though you don't.

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[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jul 14 2005, 08:55 AM']Yes I was being sooo manipulative in my wording.  Clearly I was trying to include physical therapy into the debate. 

Are you kidding me?
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No I'm not kidding at all that is what loading a discussion is, it is very subtle, it gives someone reading it an instant feeling about the topic, you may or may not have done it intentionally( often we load things by instinct) but it is a basic propoganda technique. One example we are all familiar with is the term Pro-choice, which instantly makes all who disagree out to be antichoice.

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jul 14 2005, 08:55 AM']I've been doing some research on the Church's view on this DJ and maybe you can share some documentation.  Everything that I've found talks about the clear distinctions between the mind and the soul.
No it embraces the idea of learning and understanding dysfunction.  Its methods deal with ethics and not necessarily morality.  There is a distinct difference there. 

And please show me one field of science that deals with morality and not ethics?
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First of all I have shown documentation in previous threads. If you are trained in Theology as you claim you are then the fact that Mind is a Faculty of the Soul should be well ingrained in you, it origionally comes from Aristotle and comes to use from the Scholastics. Decarte was condemned for even slightly altering this agrangement-- among many other things.

And I already said that Neurophycologist where dealing with Morality and not Ethics Morality was those scientist word not mine attribution to them.
[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jul 14 2005, 08:55 AM']Modern Science rejects the notion that sin causes physical disorders.  [color=red]Yet that is also supported by scripture and Tradition. [/color] A doctor would probably have to stand before a board of his peers if he prescribed "stop sinning" to a cancer patient.  Why because fields of science do not deal with issues of morality. Individual doctors and scientists do but not the field in general.
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Really You can show me where isn Scripture it denies the origion of all maladies is sin REALLY!!!! Please elucidate me because that seems to be one of the major points of all Revelation.

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jul 14 2005, 08:55 AM']Medical doctors do the exact same thing.  Yet I have never seen anyone (including yourself) make sweeping generalizations against the science of medicine. 
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Actually I find the field of medicine extremely suspect, however they are trying to use science to study and treat a material substance--the body--any doctor who claimed that he could treat your soul through science would equally bring condemnation.

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jul 14 2005, 08:55 AM']Is it better to go to a Catholic doctor?  Yes

Is it better to go to a Catholic therapist?  Yes
And yet the Church recognizes the field of psychology and its contributions even though you don't.
I know you said you would have more time today.  Perhaps you can give some examples to demonstrate your points
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The Church recognizes the contrabutions of the field of psychology --agian REALLY please point me to the document in which THE CHURCH and not a member of it does so. I will get back to you with documents which reject Psychology's givens.

Edited July 14, 2005 by Don John of Austria

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jul 14 2005, 11:32 AM']I always love when amateurs [those outside a profession] try to tell professionals [in this case, actual psychologists and therapists and social workers ] that they haven't a clue.


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Never said they hadn't a clue I said the premises upon which modern Psychology is built are heretical untrue and at heart evil as the dehumanize man and relegate the Sould to a silent partner in existance.

[Jaime]

[quote]The Church recognizes the contrabutions of the field of psychology --agian REALLY please point me to the document in which THE CHURCH and not a member of it does so. I will get back to you with documents which reject Psychology's givens.
[/quote]

JPII Laborem exercens

[quote]The Church is convinced that work is a fundamental dimension of man's existence on earth. She is confirmed in this conviction by considering the whole heritage of the many sciences devoted to man: anthropology, palaeontology, history, sociology, psychology and so on; they all seem to bear witness to this reality in an irrefutable way. [/quote]

Paul VI

[quote]Thus it comes about that we must recognize many aspects and many motives of non-belief; that we must receive the many objections which non-belief proposes to us; that we must respect the scientific contributions which it makes to the study of the religious problem, with arguments drawn from unquestionable sciences such as psychology and sociology;...[/quote]

As to a distinction and subjegation of the mind from the soul

CCC 202[quote] Jesus himself affirms that God is "the one Lord" whom you must love "with all your heart, and [b]with all your soul, and with all your mind[/b], and with all your strength". At the same time Jesus gives us to understand that he himself is "the Lord". To confess that Jesus is Lord is distinctive of Christian faith. This is not contrary to belief in the One God. Nor does believing in the Holy Spirit as "Lord and giver of life" introduce any division into the One God:[/quote]

Edited July 14, 2005 by jaime

[Don John of Austria]

Sorry I haven't responded today I've been running a fevor, had trouble staying focused-- I haven't forgotten I will give you are response as soon as possible.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]JPII Laborem exercens[/quote]



Your Joking Right! This is an encyclical on Work and is certianly not an endorsment of Psychology, except that it says Psycology along with other sciences confirms what Tradition and Scripture already witness to. As I said even a broken clock is right twice a day.


[quote]Paul VI[/quote]

This is even more laughable the entire paragrasph indeed the entire letter is about unbelief. The Pope says that Psychology is undoubtedly a science and so it is, thus it contributes to the Seclarazation of the world.
To that end here is the rest of that Paragraph.

[quote]...that we must admit the difficulties raised today by the pedagogico-social context, particularly in young minds engaged in scientific studies; and in the employment of sensitive knowledge, in preference to speculative knowledge, when dealing with the traditional religious mentality. We wish also to acknowledge that frequently that a-religious form which defines itself as secularization, and is so widely spread today, is not in itself antireligious; rather, it tends to claim for the autonomous forces of human reason the knowledge and exploitation of the world as proposed to man’s direct experience. In a word, then, we are fair, and in part assenting, in regard to “Non-Believers”. [/quote]


[quote]As to a distinction and subjegation of the mind from the soul

CCC 202[/quote]

First I must say it would have been nice if you caould have actually sited the scripture itself rather than a disassembled version used to illustrate a completly differant point in the CCC- Mark 12:30 is a fairly important scripture I think no reason not to give it pride of place. Still I see no seperation of Mind and soul here, they are mentioned seperatly, so what? One is a subset of the other agian the mind is a facualty of the soul, like horsepower is a facualty of my car, I might differintiate between them but it does not render the horsepower of my car a seperate and distinct thing, there is no horsepower with out the car, at least not with out the engine, the soul of the Car, the animating force of the car. I recomend that you look up a bit of Catholic righting on the soul and on the mind.Maybe you should start with the entry on the soul in the Catholic Encyclopedia which explains quite well the fact that the Mind is part of the Soul, and in the first paragraph even.( I was pleasetly suprised to find that explination made so readily)

I'll save you the trouble of going to look it up here it is --

[quote]The question of the reality of the soul and its distinction from the body is among the most important problems of philosophy, for with it is bound up the doctrine of a future life. Various theories as to the nature of the soul have claimed to be reconcilable with the tenet of immortality, but it is a sure instinct that leads us to suspect every attack on the substantiality or spirituality of the soul as an assault on the belief in existence after death. [color=red]The soul may be defined as the ultimate internal principle by which we think, feel, and will, and by which our bodies are animated. The term "mind" usually denotes this principle as the subject of our conscious states, while "soul" denotes the source of our vegetative activities as well. That our vital activities proceed from a principle capable of subsisting in itself, is the thesis of the substantiality of the soul: that this principle is not itself composite, extended, corporeal, or essentially and intrinsically dependent on the body, is the doctrine of spirituality.[/color] If there be a life after death, clearly the agent or subject of our vital activities must be capable of an existence separate from the body. The belief in an animating principle in some sense distinct from the body is an almost inevitable inference from the observed facts of life. Even uncivilized peoples arrive at the concept of the soul almost without reflection, certainly without any severe mental effort. The mysteries of birth and death, the lapse of conscious life during sleep and in swooning, even the commonest operations of imagination and memory, which abstract a man from his bodily presence even while awake-all such facts invincibly suggest the existence of something besides the visible organism, internal to it, but to a large extent independent of it, and leading a life of its own. In the rude psychology of the primitive nations, the soul is often represented as actually migrating to and fro during dreams and trances, and after death haunting the neighbourhood of its body. Nearly always it is figured as something extremely volatile, a perfume or a breath. Often, as among the Fijians, it is represented as a miniature replica of the body, so small as to be invisible. The Samoans have a name for the soul which means "that which comes and goes". Many peoples, such as the Dyaks and Sumatrans, bind various parts of the body with cords during sickness to prevent the escape of the soul. In short, all the evidence goes to show that Dualism, however uncritical and inconsistent, is the instinctive creed of "primitive man" (see ANIMISM). [/quote]




I posted the whole paragraph so not to be accused of taking something out of context.

So I will rephrase my earlier challenge can you provide a document which recognizes POSITIVE contrabutions of the Field of psychology, in short can you show anything which says out right that Psycology is GOOD. For while JPII is neutral to it, Paul VI was affirming it's role in secularism--- hardly a screaming endorsement.

Edited July 15, 2005 by Don John of Austria

[Jaime]

[quote]The Church recognizes the contrabutions of the field of psychology --agian REALLY please point me to the document in which THE CHURCH and not a member of it does so. I will get back to you with documents which reject Psychology's givens.[/quote]

Oh we're just getting warmed up Don. But this was the deal. I provided the documentation that the Church recognizes the contributions made. You can rephrase your challenge if you want. But how about backing up your opinions with some documentation?

Where are the Church documents that reject psychology?