Kneeling

[T.H.K.]

yeah i spose it doesn't have anything to do wit this thread, somebody stated that there are a shortage of Preists because of the lack of this real presence ON this thread so i just wanted to know what the opinion on this was.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='T.H.K.' date='Jul 2 2005, 04:43 AM']yeah i spose it doesn't have anything to do wit this thread, somebody stated that there are a shortage of Preists because of the lack of this real presence ON this thread so i just wanted to know what the opinion on this was.

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Well, the shortage of priests at the present time in the Catholic Church has many causes, a lack of faith in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist may be one of those causes, but it's only one cause among many.

Regardless, Catholics need to trust in the Lord that He will supply future vocations to the priesthood and religious life.

May the Holy Theotokos bless you this day, which is the feast of the enshrining of Her Mantle at Blachernae,

[i]Kontakion for the day:[/i]

O Pure One whom God Himself has blessed,
you have given as a blanket of protection
to all the faithful the holy mantle that you wore.
We celebrate with love
the deposition of this mantle and sing out:
"Rejoice, O Virgin most honorable, glory of Christians!"
Amen.

[Donna]

My little take on it:

The pastor is not the Pastor and Shepherd of my soul.

At the name of Jesus, every knee shall bend. At Fatima, the angel precursor -St. Michael- prostrated himself (!) along with the three children before the suspended Host and Chalice.

He said to the seers, "Take and eat the Body of Jesus Christ, horribly outraged by ungrateful men! Make reparation for their crimes and console your God!"

The angels in heaven rejoice more at the one sinner who does penance than the 99 who are just and have no need for penance. Surely the state of heart and mind for such a one would include, like Magdalene, *needing* to kneel before her God?

Ya know, the Jews bound in Eygypt initially asked to be able to
worship their God in peace.

Now I know what they mean. But the pastors of THE Pastor are not to be a stumbling block and a scandal. Don't speak of obedience to me! The familia gals did long ago, giving no compassion to my tears and bewilderment at the pastor not letting me kneel (!) but urging me to holy obedience for a greater end.

Excuse me, but I am not a cloistered nun who has taken solemn vows.

What we do does impact our faith. Especially for a little protestant, who never knelt, and finds out about the Blessed Sacrament, what kind of catechism is taught in forbidding such a one to kneel?

Maybe the 85% who don't beleive in the Eucharist haven't been "allowed" to kneel.

How many pastors have been ditched, how many little ones turned away from the tabernacle and Our Lord and God, because of refusing to let parishoners kneel?

Common sense. Not even an angel from heaven will convince me that it's wrong or improper or inconvenient to others and the flow of the communion line, etc; to KNEEL at CHURCH where GOD IS.

That'd be a fallen angel spouting that line.

[T.H.K.]

So what are you saying?? No disrespect, but all that stuff you just wrote doesn't make much sense at all.
Are you saying we SHOULD kneel to the point where it actually matters if we don't?

[jasJis]

Donna is saying that if you powerfully feel you must submit to God in the Eucharist, then you must be obedient to God speaking in your heart and kneel.

On the other hand I also am aware that it is Jesus' authority that resides in the priest that I obey, not the imperfect man. I work to accept and tolerate a priests imperfection as a penance to understand how much Jesus tolerates mine. 'Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us'.

Pray about it and be aware of the circumstances. Properly form YOUR conscience and kneel when God tells you should. Make sure you kneel in reverence to God's Presence and His Authority and pray that others are doing the same.

[toledo_jesus]

you have read the documents, and they are clear. if you will be persecuted for kneeling then by all means don't. but I knelt at my home parish though everyone stood. There were no kneelers, and I couldn't even see Him when He was held up. Nobody tore my head off, and in fact there were others who knelt. You just can't see them when you stand.

kneel and honor God in the way you must.

[Cam42]

[quote]if you will be persecuted for kneeling then by all means don't.[/quote]

That is where I disagree. The documents don't allow for that and neither should the parishes, in the USA.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jul 4 2005, 05:55 PM']That is where I disagree.  The documents don't allow for that and neither should the parishes, in the USA.
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i meant like, if people are gonna throw rocks at you or beat you up. There's no reason to suffer that in this situation, because she'll just be told to go to a different mass. after re-reading my statement it does look like I said the documents indicate this, which is wrong. It would be a virtue to suffer for it, but I was just trying to make the point that nobody was gonna martyr her.

[Cam42]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Jul 4 2005, 06:02 PM']i meant like, if people are gonna throw rocks at you or beat you up.  There's no reason to suffer that in this situation, because she'll just be told to go to a different mass.  after re-reading my statement it does look like I said the documents indicate this, which is wrong.  It would be a virtue to suffer for it, but I was just trying to make the point that nobody was gonna martyr her.
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I still disagree. I have been ridiculed in public because I kneel. I don't go looking to make a scene, but I do have a desire to do what is correct.

[kateri05]

actually lots of crazy catholic churches don't have kneelers. this came up tonite at dinner. the parish where lifeteen started, st. tims in AZ doesn't have kneelers. why follow the rules when you can break them? welcome to the american catholic church !

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='kateri05' date='Jul 4 2005, 10:53 PM']actually lots of crazy catholic churches don't have kneelers.  this came up tonite at dinner.  the parish where lifeteen started, st. tims in AZ doesn't have kneelers.  why follow the rules when you can break them?  welcome to the american catholic church !
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Maybe someday a generous parishioner will donate kneelers to that Church.

[cmotherofpirl]

We have a church without kneelers that was designed in the stupid period.
Kneeling is not optional so they kneel on the floor

[PedroX]

Ok Pedro.....

Let's assume your seminary didn't allow kneeling. Everyone was to stand for the Canon. What would you do?


Sorry to get back so late to this debate. Life has been a bit crazy.

If the seminary were to forbid kneeling (and for the record, we follow the GIRM very strictly) the first step would be to ask the director of Liturgy and worship why he had made this decision. After hearing his explanation, I would decide whether or not to show him the relevant passages from the GIRM. If after showing him the GIRM he still refused to alter his decision, I would talk with the Rector. If the Rector refused to over-ride the decision. I am faced with a dilemma. I can go over his head and call the Bishop, or I can spend some time in prayer and discernment. about it. While forbidding kneeling is clearly against the documents, I'm not sure I would want to fall on my sword on this issue. I believe I have been given a vocation from God. Is my pride over being right worth sacrificing a vocation for?

These are similar questions to what we all must ask ourselves. Is my pride leading me here? Am I asking out of charity and concern for the welfare of souls? Why do I feel the need to fight over this? What am I hearing from God in my prayer life?

Hope this helps to clear things up Cam.

peace...

[popestpiusx]

Why are some saying that kneeling for the entire Canon is an organic development out of the older norm to stand during the canon? The practice of kneeling during the entire canon has been in place for centuries. Standing during the Canon was introduced with the Novus Ordo.

[Cam42]

[quote name='PedroX' date='Jul 7 2005, 12:04 PM']Ok Pedro.....

Let's assume your seminary didn't allow kneeling. Everyone was to stand for the Canon. What would you do?
Sorry to get back so late to this debate.  Life has been a bit crazy.

If the seminary were to forbid kneeling (and for the record, we follow the GIRM very strictly) the first step would be to ask the director of Liturgy and worship why he had made this decision.  After hearing his explanation, I would decide whether or not to show him the relevant passages from the GIRM.  If after showing him the GIRM he still refused to alter his decision, I would talk with the Rector.  If the Rector refused to over-ride the decision.  I am faced with a dilemma.  I can go over his head and call the Bishop, or I can spend some time in prayer and discernment. about it.  While forbidding kneeling is clearly against the documents, I'm not sure I would want to fall on my sword on this issue.  I believe I have been given a vocation from God.  Is my pride over being right worth sacrificing a vocation for? 

These are similar questions to what we all must ask ourselves.  Is my pride leading me here?  Am I asking out of charity and concern for the welfare of souls?  Why do I feel the need to fight over this?  What am I hearing from God in my prayer life?

Hope this helps to clear things up Cam.

peace...
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Oh Pedro.....I am very clear in what I do. I will follow the GIRM. I have been through this fight before. The indult granted to the USA and approved by recognitio of the Holy See is to kneel. It is not being prideful to kneel. That is a cop out for liberals. If your rector is not accomodating the GIRM, then you are to go to the bishop, that is your right, as defined by the document Redemptionis Sacramentum.

Acutally, I would be going to the rector in all humility. It is a humbling action to be submissive to the will of the Church.

It is prideful not to follow the madates of the Church. Your analogy is backwards.

Am I clear? Yes, I will kneel. I will kneel in your seminary chapel, I will kneel at St. Joan of Arc in MPLS. I will kneel at the Cathedral in Orlando, Fl. I will kneel wherever I am in the USA. Simple. That is being obedient, not prideful.

Pray more, your sense of pride is aschew.