Kneeling

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='let_go_let_God' date='Jun 30 2005, 08:19 PM']As far as I understand, the use of the GIRM has been explained, but also doesn't the "normal posture" during mass also depend on whether or not your local Bishop has allowed for such posture to occur? The only reason that I ask this is because we are having a similar debate at my college.

God bless-
LGLG
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The bishop does not have the authority to change the norms established by the General Instruction without the prior [i]recognitio[/i] of the Holy See.

[Cam42]

[quote name='let_go_let_God' date='Jun 30 2005, 11:19 PM']As far as I understand, the use of the GIRM has been explained, but also doesn't the "normal posture" during mass also depend on whether or not your local Bishop has allowed for such posture to occur? The only reason that I ask this is because we are having a similar debate at my college.

God bless-
LGLG
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Remember, the bishop is still bound by this:
[quote name='Sacrosanctum Concilium #22']1. Regulation of the Sacred Liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church, that is, on the Apostolic See and, as laws may determine, on the bishop.

2. In virtue of power conceded by the law, the regulation of the Liturgy within certain defined limits belongs also to various kinds of competent territorial bodies of bishops legitimately established.

3. Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the Liturgy on his own authority.[/quote]

Also, this comes into play:
[quote name='Sacrosanctum Concilium #23']That sound tradition may be retained, and yet the way remain open to legitimate progress, careful investigation is always to be made into each part of the Liturgy which is to be revised. This investigation should be theological, historical, and pastoral. Also the general laws governing the structure and meaning of the Liturgy must be studied in conjunction with the experience derived from recent liturgical reforms and from the indults conceded to various places. Finally, there must be no innovations unless the good of the Church genuinely and certainly requires them; and care must be taken that any new forms adopted should in some way grow organically from forms already existing.

As far as possible, notable differences between the rites used in adjacent regions must be carefully avoided.[/quote]

So, based upon Vatican Council II, we see that no one may on his own authority change anything in the Liturgy, this edict includes a bishop. Why? Because of what #23 says. Kneeling for the Canon is legitimate progress. The norm is to kneel only for the consecration, however, an indult has been granted that has organically grown from that tradition. Is it for the good of the Church that the dioceses of the US kneel for the whole of the Canon? The USCCB thinks so and the Holy See agrees.

It would be turning back progress to stand for the Canon. That should infuriate progressives. If I were a progressive Catholic, I would be appalled that anyone would want to turn back the clock and do something so traditional as to only kneel for the consecration.

[let_go_let_God]

The situation at our college is that we are a Benidictine College and the sisters who reside in the monistary are gaining in years, and are basically unable to kneel and the fact that our chapel doesn't have kneelers in the pews deters most students from kneeling as well. This has been hightened by the campus preist and campus minister saying that because of that everyone should stand no question. The local Bishop has said that he has not given an exclusion to the school and therefore we must kneel unless our health prevents us. There are many students who still kneel, but those who are highly upset by this attend mass at a neighboring parish.

God bless-
LGLG

[inDEED]

Correct me if I'm wrong...

Can't a Bishop allow for the congregation to stand?

[dUSt]

[quote name='inDEED' date='Jul 1 2005, 03:54 PM']Correct me if I'm wrong...

Can't a Bishop allow for the congregation to stand?
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They need a permission slip from Rome.

[inDEED]

You're funny looking...not funny...

[Cam42]

[quote name='inDEED' date='Jul 1 2005, 04:54 PM']Correct me if I'm wrong...

Can't a Bishop allow for the congregation to stand?
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No.

[Cam42]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Jul 1 2005, 07:17 PM']They need a permission slip from Rome.
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Even then, no.

[inDEED]

So a Bishop of a particular diocese CANNOT allow for a parish that does not have kneelers to stand during the Consecration?

[Cam42]

No. Every church should have kneelers. If a particular church does not have kneelers or has had them removed, it is an abuse. The bishop should, by virtue of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, require the pastor to return kneelers.

Removal of kneelers is complicit support of an abuse.

[Apotheoun]

I can't imagine a Roman parish not having kneelers. Heck, even most of the Byzantine parishes that I've attended have kneelers (unless there are no pews), and Eastern Catholics don't kneel anywhere near as much as Westerners.

[T.H.K.]

What is the Real presence?? Can you elaborate a little??

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='T.H.K.' date='Jul 2 2005, 03:32 AM']What is the Real presence?? Can you elaborate a little??
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The theological term "real presence" is simply a way of talking about Christ's mode of existence in the Eucharistic elements after their consecration.

In other words, during the Divine Liturgy the priest, acting in the person of Christ the head, consecrates bread and wine into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ. Later on in the liturgical service the consecrated elements are consumed by the members of the congregation, and by receiving the body and blood of Christ the communicants are infused with God's deifying grace.

The change in the bread and wine is called [i]transubstantiation[/i] in the Latin Church, and is called [i]metaousiosis[/i] in the Byzantine Church. And this change involves a transformation of the bread and wine at the level of their essential being into the substance of Christ's body and blood.

[T.H.K.]

Ok thanx for the info....so if a man doesn't go through this ceremony, he can't be a real teacher of the Word of God??

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='T.H.K.' date='Jul 2 2005, 04:21 AM']Ok thanx for the info....so if a man doesn't go through this ceremony, he can't be a real teacher of the Word of God??
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The liturgy is about the worship of Almighty God and the divinization of man through grace, and so it is not really about "education" [i]per se[/i], although a man can learn many things by attending the Divine Liturgy.

To be honest your question about being a "teacher" doesn't really have anything to do with the subject matter of this thread, which is focused upon liturgical matters.

In the Catholic tradition a "teacher" or "catechist" is deputed to teach by the proper Church authorities, i.e., the bishop or those appointed by him.



God bless,
Todd