Apotheoun Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 26 2005, 10:58 AM']That is possible, yes. We can do nothing without grace. We can win graces for conversion for other people. Hence, if we choose not to, then that person lacks those graces which may have led to their salvation. This is why we pray and do penance for sinners in general, and not just particular persons. [right][snapback]624367[/snapback][/right] [/quote] This seems to make God into a vicious monster. He will beaver dam a person because someone else failed to pray for them, but they would have been saved otherwise. This sounds very Augustinian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semperviva Posted June 26, 2005 Author Share Posted June 26, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 26 2005, 12:55 PM']I still will not accept the idea [b]that if I don't pray for a certain person[/b], that as a consequence of that, they will go to hell. [right][snapback]624363[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I think it depends on your intent Apoth. If you think of a person while praying, and you decide to not pray for them out of vice, laziness, pride, what then? one definition of millstone noun A duty or responsibility that is a source of anxiety, worry, or hardship: (or damnation-hahaha, JK) I think its pushing it to say you[b] will [/b]be damned as well, BUT, you will have to bear some punishment for it...depending on if you repent or not...i think... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 26 2005, 01:00 PM']This seems to make God into a vicious monster. He will beaver dam a person because someone else failed to pray for them, but they would have been saved otherwise. This sounds very Augustinian. [right][snapback]624370[/snapback][/right] [/quote] God does not give every person the same measure of grace. Strictly speaking, God only needs to give us the grace of conversion once, and he would be justified in not offering it again should we refuse. We have no "right" to the grace of conversion. He gives us enough. Beyond what he gives us out of the goodness of his will, he gives us more in reward to the prayers of his servants. He doesn't owe us anything, and so we need to be grateful for whatever he does give us. That is not being a "vicious monster". That is being a merciful and just God. A person who spurns the graces of conversion given by God deserve to be cast into hell. The fact that God makes it possible for others to merit more grace for that soul is an act of mercy. Those other people may or may not choose to merit that grace; but the fact that it is possible is better than the alternative: God abandons the soul altogether, and offers it grace no more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semperviva Posted June 26, 2005 Author Share Posted June 26, 2005 I think its OK to substitue atheism with sin in the following. Since atheism is just a specific form of rejecting God with the will. "Believers frequently [i]bear responsibility for[/i] atheism..........To the extent that they neglect their own training in the faith, or are deficient in their religious, moral or social life, they must be said to conceal the face of God and religion." Gaudium Et Spes ...maybe this is irrelevant but, i don't know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 Eremite, I agree with you that a person can spurn grace and reject salvation. Salvation is by definition a synergistic activity. But I don't hold that one person failing to pray for another person will send the latter soul to hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 [quote]But I don't hold that one person failing to pray for another person will send the latter soul to hell. [/quote] I would say that it [i]can[/i], not necessarily that it will. There are other factors involved. For example, there may be other people praying for him, which would make up for the lack of prayer elsewhere. Or the person may just cooperate with the grace God chose to give it, apart from any surplus grace that may have come about. Either way, the most important point here is that, as St. Paul says, now is the acceptable time, now is the time of salvation. We will answer for our own choices. Whether we receive surplus graces or not, we will have to answer why we didn't cooperate with the grace we WERE given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 26 2005, 11:14 AM']I would say that it [i]can[/i], not necessarily that it will. There are other factors involved. For example, there may be other people praying for him, which would make up for the lack of prayer elsewhere. Or the person may just cooperate with the grace God chose to give it, apart from any surplus grace that may have come about. [right][snapback]624381[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Well as I said before, the person who was damned by the lack of prayer of another person, should then appeal to God explaining how he is not responsible for his present situation, and demanding to be allowed to experience in the vision of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 [quote]Well as I said before, the person who was damned by the lack of prayer of another person, should then appeal to God explaining how he is not responsible for his present situation, and demanding to be allowed to experience in the vision of God.[/quote] He sure is responsible. That doesn't mean others aren't responsible as well. But he bears the primary responsibility. As I said, we don't have a right to ANY graces of conversion, let alone EXTRA graces. If we do not cooperate with the graces merited and distributed by Christ himself, we have no right to complain that someone else didn't obtain for us MORE graces. We had our chance, and we blew it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 26 2005, 11:19 AM']He sure is responsible. That doesn't mean others aren't responsible as well. But he bears the primary responsibility. As I said, we don't have a right to ANY graces of conversion, let alone EXTRA graces. If we do not cooperate with the graces merited and distributed by Christ himself, we have no right to complain that someone else didn't obtain for us MORE graces. We had our chance, and we blew it. [right][snapback]624390[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Well, as long as people say that the damned man perishes through his own fault alone, I'm satisfied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 26 2005, 01:23 PM']Well, as long as people say that the damned man perishes through his own fault alone, I'm satisfied. [right][snapback]624392[/snapback][/right] [/quote] In the absolute strict sense, I can agree with that. Padre Pio says the will is the only thing anyone (not even the devil) can't touch. We can tempt it, but we can never exercise it for someone. It's like the drunk man who drives his car home. Yes, someone should have stopped serving him alcohol. Yes, someone could have taken his keys from him. Yes, someone could have called him a cab. But he made the decision to get drunk in the first place, and it's his fault he's dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 26 2005, 11:25 AM']In the absolute strict sense, I can agree with that. Padre Pio says the will is the only thing anyone (not even the devil) can touch. We can tempt it, but we can never exercise it for someone. [right][snapback]624393[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Wow, we have actually come to some kind of an agreement. How unusual for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 My Vatican sources are telling me that Pope Benedict and Patriarch Bartholomew have been monitoring this thread, and after our historic common agreement, don't see how East and West can remain separated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 26 2005, 11:43 AM']My Vatican sources are telling me that Pope Benedict and Patriarch Bartholomew have been monitoring this thread, and after our historic common agreement, don't see how East and West can remain separated. [right][snapback]624407[/snapback][/right] [/quote] If only it were that easy. But we best not get into the minor details of our agreement or it could collapse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semperviva Posted June 26, 2005 Author Share Posted June 26, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 26 2005, 01:43 PM']My Vatican sources are telling me that Pope Benedict and Patriarch Bartholomew have been monitoring this thread, and after our historic common agreement, don't see how East and West can remain separated. [right][snapback]624407[/snapback][/right] [/quote] [i]Hahahaha[/i] i left for 5 minutes and you came to an agreement?! thats no fun- everyone knows thats not the point of arguing Edited June 26, 2005 by Semperviva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 [quote]But we best not get into the minor details of our agreement or it could collapse.[/quote] lol. This has precedence, actually. The treaty of Brest, which reunited the Ruthenians and the Romans, said: [quote]We shall not debate about purgatory, but we entrust ourselves to the teaching of the Holy Church.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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