Some people won't go to Heaven

[Guest Eremite]

God gives every person enough grace to be saved (one Eastern Saint, who escapes me, noted that God gives every soul more than enough grace to be saved).

However, beyond that, God makes some graces contingent upon the actions of another.

For example, if God has pursued a soul for 10 years, and that person has continually hardened their heart, God would be justified in abandoning them to their sins.

HOWEVER, he considers the prayers and sufferings of another person, and in reward for their spiritual altruism, he does not abandon that soul, but grants it more graces for its conversion.

Thus, although we cannot merit the substantive grace of conversion (something Christ alone could merit), we do merit surplus graces of conversion. Not because God "owes" us anything, in the strict sense, but because he rewards the faithfulness of his servants.

So, although we cannot be the cause of someone's damnation in the strict sense (they must exercise an act of will), we can be the cause of someone's damnation by extension, if we do not carry out the works of mercy God inspires us to carry out (eg, he may call us to pray for one sinner in particular, or one group of sinners).

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 26 2005, 12:34 PM']You cannot be responsible, in any sense, for the damnation of anyone but yourself.
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If I seduced you I would be a contributing FACTOR in your damnation!!!!! Satan is not responsible our sin, but he does contribute a whole heck of a lot to it. Come on!! This is the sense of cause I mean.

"It is inevitable that stumbling-blocks should come, but woe to him [i]through whom they come[/i]! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should cause one of these little ones to stumble"
Lk. 17

[i]note disclaimer: not sayin i would, just tryin to make a point[/i]

Edited June 26, 2005 by Semperviva

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 26 2005, 10:41 AM']If I seduced you I would be a contributing FACTOR in your damnation!!!!!  Satan is not responsible our sin, but he does contribute a whole heck of a lot to it.  Come on!!  This is the sense of cause I mean.

"It is inevitable that stumbling-blocks should come, but woe to him [i]through whom they come[/i]! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should cause one of these little ones to stumble"
Lk. 17
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I'm a free being, and so my sins are my own.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]If I seduced you I would be a contributing FACTOR in your damnation!!!!! Satan is not responsible our sin, but he does contribute a whole heck of a lot to it. Come on!! This is the sense of cause I mean.[/quote]

You would be a tempter, but not the cause, of my damnation. A person can only be damned because of a free act of his will that chooses something other than God.

We can poke and prod a person's will, but we cannot exercise it. Only they can.

[Semperviva]

exactly, i don't disagree eremite...but anyways, like i said i am not saying i can tamepr with your free will- you choose- but its still not good for me cause i did ( hypothetically) affect sinful behavior in some way!

[Guest Eremite]

Also, consider as well that we can pray and do penance for the grace of conversion after a person is dead, because God is not bound by time, and can apply the grace we merit before that person dies, in anticipation of our good works.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 26 2005, 10:45 AM']exactly, i don't disagree eremite...but anyways, like i said i am not saying i can tamepr with your free will- you choose- but its still not good for me cause i did ( hypothetically) affect sinful behavior in some way!
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Then you persist in your assertion that you bear responsiblity for the damnation of others?

[Semperviva]

definetely [i]partial[/i] responsibility...

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 26 2005, 10:48 AM']definetely [i]partial[/i] responsibility...
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That would be a damnable offence as well.

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 26 2005, 12:43 PM']I'm a free being, and so my sins are my own.
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"It is inevitable that stumbling-blocks should come, but woe to him through whom they come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should cause one of these little ones to stumble"
Lk. 17

Noooo, not just your own! whats the meaning of all this millstone business, then, hhhmm? Why exactly is it better to be thrown into the sea??? this implies a fate worse thandeath if you "lead someone astray"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 26 2005, 12:50 PM']That would be a damnable offence as well.
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hence the millstone

[Apotheoun]

What you're saying sounds very close to the concept of social sin found in Liberation Theology.

[Guest Eremite]

I think a distinction needs to be made between "responsibility" for damnation, and "cause" of damnation.

The strict cause of damnation is a personal act of will; nothing else.

However, many people can be held responsible for a person's damnation. See, for example, Ezekiel 33:

[quote]So you, son of man: I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; therefore you shall hear a word from My mouth and warn them for Me. "When I say to the wicked, 'O wicked [man,] you shall surely die!' and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. [/quote]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 26 2005, 10:53 AM']I think a distinction needs to be made between "responsibility" for damnation, and "cause" of damnation.

The strict cause of damnation is a personal act of will; nothing else.

However, many people can be held responsible for a person's damnation. See, for example, Ezekiel 33:
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I still will not accept the idea that if I don't pray for a certain person, that as a consequence of that, they will go to hell.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 26 2005, 12:55 PM']I still will not accept the idea that if I don't pray for a certain person, that as a consequence of that, they will go to hell.
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That is possible, yes.

We can do nothing without grace. We can win graces for conversion for other people. Hence, if we choose not to, then that person lacks those graces which may have led to their salvation.

This is why we pray and do penance for sinners in general, and not just particular persons.