Some people won't go to Heaven

[angelica]

The Confietor says "I have sinned through my own faults in what I have done and what I have failed to do" Doesn't that mean we can be part of the reason a sinner falls into hell? okay, so we can't beaver dam them, but we had the power to help them outta hell, but didn't exercise the power of prayer, sacrifice, or whatever

I was thinking that was the original question...so God gives everyone sufficient grace to be saved. So lets pretend God me more grace than someone else. I'm supposed to use that grace to pray for that person. If I don't, I sinned by not using God's grace and letting that person fall in hell because she just needed me to use my grace.

I think this was already said in the posts, that we don't cause people to fall in hell. but if we could've helped them out through prayer, than we are at fault.

Edited June 26, 2005 by angelica

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='angelica' date='Jun 25 2005, 09:31 PM']The Confietor says "I have sinned through my own faults in what I have done and what I have failed to do"  Doesn't that mean we can be part of the reason a sinner falls into hell?  okay, so we can't beaver dam them, but we had the power to help them outta hell, but didn't exercise the power of prayer, sacrifice, or whatever

I was thinking that was the original question...so God gives everyone sufficient grace to be saved.  So lets pretend God gave me more grace than someone else.  I'm supposed to use that grace to pray for that  person.  If I don't, I sinned by not using God's grace and letting that person fall in hell because she just needed me to use my grace.

I think this was already said in the posts, that we don't cause people people to fall in hell.  but if we could've helped them out through prayer, than we are at fault.
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No, because sin is always a personal choice. It is each man's responsibility to determine the good and then to do it.

In your second paragraph you spoke about failing to fully utilize the graces you have been given, and in the case you've presented, that would be a failing on your part, which may be imputable to you (God only knows), but it is not something that is imputable to others. You cannot be the cause of another person's damnation, because sin is by definition a personal act.

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 25 2005, 11:22 PM']Each man's fate is in his own hands.
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Yes,
but there is more to it that is covered in Doctrine. The issue you are addressing is not the one I am wondering about...True God wills the salvation of all- this is His Will. But, under his contingent will, I believe, he wills that some be damned...and I am asking about his "willing their damnation" contingently, as a result of us not praying, and so we would share in some of the responsiblity. [i][b] Just as we can share in reonsibility of some-one be saved and being co- redeemers in a slight way, we can be co -damners? [/b][/i]I'm not sure you understand my question, but I don't know how else to ask it... -_-

Edited June 26, 2005 by Semperviva

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 25 2005, 09:35 PM']Yes,
but there is more to it that is covered in Doctrine.  The issue you are addressing is not the one I am wondering about...True God wills the salvation of all- this is His Will.  But, under his contingent will, I believe, he wills that some be damned...and I am asking about his "willing their damnation" contingently, as a result of us not praying, and so we would share in some of the responsiblity. [i][b] Just as we can share in reonsibility of some-one be saved and being co- redeemers in a slight way, we can be co -damners? [/b][/i]I'm not sure you understand my question, but I don't know how else to ask it... -_-
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Salvation is a particular exercise, in other words, it is particular to each man, and neither you nor I can be the cause of the loss of salvation for anyone else.

Co-redeemers is not co-saviors. As I indicated above, redemption is universal, salvation is particular.

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 25 2005, 11:40 PM']Salvation is a particular exercise, in other words, it is particular to each man, and neither you nor I can be the [b]cause [/b]of the loss of salvation for anyone else. 


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I am not saying [b]cause...[/b] in that sense, but we [i]doo[/i] affect it, don't we?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 25 2005, 09:44 PM']I am not saying [b]cause...[/b] in that sense, but we [i]doo[/i] affect it, don't we?
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I know, and what I am doing is protecting the absolute inviolability of the personal nature of actions, whether they be actions leading to salvation or damnation.

[Apotheoun]

If a man is damned because of something done or not done by another person, it follows that when he stands before the bar of judgment at the end of the age, he could simply say, "I am not responsible for my damnation, this other person did not pray for me; consequently, I must be allowed to enter into the beatific vision."

[angelica]

Okay, so nobody causes someone to fall into hell
“neither you nor I can be the cause of the loss of salvation for anyone else.”

So what is the correct theological explanation of sinner A persuading sinner B to commit a murder. Sinner B would not have participated at all if sinner A had not brought the idea to his head in the first place. Sinner B fully made his own decision though, and would cause his own damnation if he died unrepentant. But what about sinner A, doesn’t he have some cause for the loss of salvation? Like parents who are bad examples to children. If the parents had been saintly examples, the children might have turned out better, perhaps saints. Its still the choice of the kids to be like the bad parents or not. But don’t the parents and sinner A have fault?

I guess what I am beginning to understand though—let me see if I got this straight so I’m going to pretend again. sinner A is NOT the cause of loss of salvation for sinner B. Okay, so they both die unrepentant. Sinner A is before God and gets sent to hell for being a bad example to sinner B but sinner A goes to hell not because he made sinner B get the murderous idea, but because he was a bad example and died unrepentant. Sinner B is before God and he is going to hell because he freely chose to do the murder. Sinner A is NOT at fault for sinner B going to hell—he is at fault for choosing to murder, be unrepentant and be a bad example.

Is that right? If so, I think I get it! Technically speaking, we can be bad examples to others or not pray for them, if that's the case, but that is our own sin and the sin is their sin....Thanks for the explanations. I am going to go and study theology right now…

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 25 2005, 11:54 PM']If a man is damned because of something done or not done by another person, it follows that when he stands before the bar of judgment at the end of the age, he could simply say, "I am not responsible for my damnation, this other person did not pray for me; consequently, I must be allowed to enter into the beatific vision."
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It might. Like I said, I specifically asked my professor after class, who has taken an oath to be faithful to the Magesterium before the bishop, and he said to the effect of...God has set things in such a way that He desires that some people be saved through the prayers of others and if we neglect these prayers, it's possible that the lost soul in question will be damned, of his own choice, yet he did not have the [b][i]AID[/i][/b] of the actual grace, of his own WILL he was damned, at the same time. This is what he said is doctrine, but like u said it seems to imply the person is not responsible, but it can't imply that, and so I wonder still what the missing piece of this doctrine is...

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 25 2005, 10:11 PM']It might.  Like I said, I specifically asked my professor after class, who has taken an oath to be faithful to the Magesterium before the bishop, and he said to the effect of...God has set things in such a way that He desires that some people be saved through the prayers of others and if we neglect these prayers, it's possible that the lost soul in question will be damned, of his own choice, yet he did not have the [b][i]AID[/i][/b] of the actual grace, of his own WILL he was damned, at the same time.  This is what he said is doctrine, but like u said it seems to imply the person is not responsible, but it can't imply that, and so I wonder still what the missing piece of this doctrine is...
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I don't share the opinion of your professor.

[Dave]

Our Lady of Fatima told Lucia, Blessed Jacinta, and Blessed Francisco that so many people go to hell because they have no one to pray for them.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Dave' date='Jun 25 2005, 10:22 PM']Our Lady of Fatima told Lucia, Blessed Jacinta, and Blessed Francisco that so many people go to hell because they have no one to pray for them.
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As I said earlier in this thread. All public revelation, which is binding upon all men, ceased with the death of the last Apostle. Consequently, private revelation is binding upon no one.

[jasJis]

Interesting thread. I think that if Apotheon, the Proffessor, and Semperviva sat in a living room, they would come to agreement.
Semper, keep in mind we may have limited responsibility for the sins of others, but that doesn't mean it's Mortal sin that would beaver dam us. Every person is given the opportunity to accept Salvific Grace in whatever means and ways that God may choose. Normally, this grace is channeld through the Church. But we have free will and can reject Salvific Grace. God is infinitely patient and presents us with multible opportunities to respond or accept His grace. God gives weight and real consequence to our actions and chooses to work or offer His grace through us. There are times that we individuals, are intended (by God's own Will) to serve God and be sources of grace through words, action, or prayer. If we fail to follow God's Will in these instances, these people may not receive all the opportunities to accept Salvific Grace as God may have intended. God is merciful and wonderful and perfect. His will is not limited by our Sins unless He allows it. We aren't damned for our sin unless it is committed with our full will and intent. And it only takes one unrepented Mortal Sin to beaver dam us. God gives everyone sufficient opportunity to repent. But God is exceedingly generous. Catholics, because of His graces through the Church, have tons and tons of opportunities to repent and/or accept Grace. We are the Church and God works though us for others. If the other isn't closely tied to the Church, we may be one of the fewer opportunities of Grace, but we aren't the only ones. We will suffer the agony of guilt and sorrow when we are received by Jesus in heaven and learned when we failed, but Jesus will make us whole and accept us into His arms unless we've committed mortal sins and intentionally, with consent of our will, refused to pray for these people.

[Semperviva]

"With the Holy Rosary,
We will sanctify ourselves,
[b]and obtain the salvation of many souls[/b].” -Sr. Lucia

...Apoth, although this is an idea promulgated by private revelations to the children at Fatima, it is not exactly a new idea.
We pray for others, we contribute in their salvation...but, we often don't....
Does it work both ways? Jas, because God does not will anyone's damnation He, in His mercy would provide other oppurtunities of grace, grazie...[color=orange]everyone pray for lost souls, anyway![/color]

Edited June 26, 2005 by Semperviva

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 26 2005, 10:07 AM']"With the Holy Rosary,
We will sanctify ourselves,
[b]and obtain the salvation of many souls[/b].” -Sr. Lucia

...Apoth, although this is an idea promulgated by private revelations to the children at Fatima, it is not exactly a new idea.
We pray for others, we contribute in their salvation...but, we often don't....
Does it work both ways? Jas, because God does not will anyone's damnation He, in His mercy would provide other oppurtunities of grace, grazie...[color=orange]everyone pray for lost souls,  anyway![/color]
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You cannot be responsible, in any sense, for the damnation of anyone but yourself.

I agree that we should pray for everyone, it is the other part I disagree with.