Semperviva Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 I'm so sorry to be bothering ppl with all my obnoxious ideas theories, questions, but I've been wondering about this for two years now: In Theology 101, freshman year, my professor said, [i]some people, God deems to not receive grace, (contingent will?? i forget) either actual or sanctifying, because we choose [b]not[/b] to pray for them, ie their grace reception depends on our responsivness to grace and whether or not we pray, etc etc... [/i] I asked him, if as a result of this doctrine, some people just won't go to Heaven as a fault of ours for notprayijng for lost souls, sinners, or whoever it is God will us to pray for. [i]He said yes, some people won't go to Heaven because of our not praying for them[/i]...I am still somewhat confused about this...Some other kids at college thought he might be wrong on this point...or at least that there is some other piece to the puzzle...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semperviva Posted June 26, 2005 Author Share Posted June 26, 2005 ............nobody knows? shocker...LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 I was hoping someone more knowledgeable than me would answer. I think the idea may be correct though. For example, in St. Faustina Kowalska's diary, Jesus tells her that if she fails in her mission, she will be personally responsible for the loss of a great many souls. (Talk about pressure...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 Damnation is the fault of the one who is damned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semperviva Posted June 26, 2005 Author Share Posted June 26, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 25 2005, 10:39 PM']Damnation is the fault of the one who is damned. [right][snapback]623860[/snapback][/right] [/quote] No kidding...? LOL...I mean, more along the lines of its the person's fault [i]and[/i] some-one else's, say mine since I'm so selfish I never remember to pray for anyone else...Aaaagh Basically the question I meant was...are some people damned through our fault and sinfullness, as well as their own? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 [quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 25 2005, 08:46 PM']No kidding...? LOL...I mean, more along the lines of its the person's fault [i]and[/i] some-one else's, say mine since I'm so selfish I never remember to pray for anyone else...Aaaagh  Basically the question I meant was...are some people damned through our fault and sinfullness, as well as their own? [right][snapback]623866[/snapback][/right] [/quote] No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 I think maybe rephrasing would clarify. Yes, people are damned through their own fault. But maybe it's in our power to help save them from the trouble they've got themselves into. Why else do we pray for sinners? Obviously we have all damned ourselves, and Jesus saves us. Continually. I believe that through the shared grace of the communion of saints, if someone neglects their obligations, or fails to pray... well, that might mean that some sinner doesn't get the extra grace he needs to repent of his sin and accept the mercy of God. Maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 [quote name='philothea' date='Jun 25 2005, 08:54 PM']I think maybe rephrasing would clarify. Yes, people are damned through their own fault. But maybe it's in our power to help save them from the trouble they've got themselves into. Why else do we pray for sinners? Obviously we have all damned ourselves, and Jesus saves us. Continually. I believe that through the shared grace of the communion of saints, if someone neglects their obligations, or fails to pray... well, that might mean that some sinner doesn't get the extra grace he needs to repent of his sin and accept the mercy of God. Maybe? [right][snapback]623873[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Certainly we can pray for other people, and we should pray for other people, but it is not in our power to beaver dam anyone. Sin is by definition a personal reality, and so each man's sins, both mortal and venial, are his and his alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 [quote name='philothea' date='Jun 25 2005, 08:54 PM'][. . .] I believe that through the shared grace of the communion of saints, if someone neglects their obligations, or fails to pray... well, that might mean that some sinner doesn't get the extra grace he needs to repent of his sin and accept the mercy of God. Maybe? [right][snapback]623873[/snapback][/right] [/quote] God gives sufficient grace to every man so that he may be saved, for as the Council of Quiersy (AD 853) declared against Gottschalk and the Predestinarians, one must believe that the "Omnipotent God wishes all men without exception to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4) although not all will be saved. However, that certain ones are saved, is the gift of the one [i.e., God] who saves; that certain one perish, however, is the deserved punishment of those who perish." [[u]The Sources of Catholic Dogma[/u], page 127] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 25 2005, 11:06 PM']God gives sufficient grace to every man so that he may be saved, for as the Council of Quiersy (AD 853) declared against Gottschalk and the Predestinarians, one must believe that the "Omnipotent God wishes all men without exception to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4) although not all will be saved. However, that certain ones are saved, is the gift of the one [i.e., God] who saves; that certain one perish, however, is the deserved punishment of those who perish." [[u]The Sources of Catholic Dogma[/u], page 127] [right][snapback]623880[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I understand -- well, for some not-very-comprehensive meaning of the word "understand". My imaginary scenario would be when someone had already rejected the graces sufficient for their salvation. Thank you for clarifying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semperviva Posted June 26, 2005 Author Share Posted June 26, 2005 (edited) [quote name='philothea' date='Jun 25 2005, 10:38 PM']In St. Faustina Kowalska's diary, Jesus tells her that if she fails in her mission, she will be personally responsible for the loss of a great many souls. [right][snapback]623859[/snapback][/right] [/quote] If Christ said this to St Faustina, it probly applies to each of us in our mission. Edited June 26, 2005 by Semperviva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 [quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 25 2005, 09:15 PM']If Christ said this to St Faustina, it probly applies to all, perhaps to a lesser degree, though. [right][snapback]623886[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Private revelation is not binding on anyone, and so it has no dogmatic value. No man can cause the damnation of any other man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 [quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 25 2005, 11:15 PM']If Christ said this to St Faustina, it probly applies to each of us in our mission. [right][snapback]623886[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Oh, I don't know about that. St. Faustina was supposed to share the message of Divine Mercy with the world, including the chaplet, the Feast of Mercy, the Hour of Great Mercy, the image, etc. If she had failed, I can see it having a big impact on the world. I suspect my being rather bad at saying rosaries isn't on the same scale... :ph34r: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semperviva Posted June 26, 2005 Author Share Posted June 26, 2005 (edited) I don't mean [i]caaause [/i]others damnation, but be a contributing factor in. Philo-Whoops! Meant to put a [i]PERHAPS[/i] in there somewhere to clarify that not all ppl have the same degree of responsibily as her...oopsie... Edited June 26, 2005 by Semperviva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 [quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 25 2005, 09:21 PM']I don't mean [i]caaause [/i]others damnation, but be a contributing factor in. [right][snapback]623894[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Each man's fate is in his own hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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