Mystical Theology

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 6 2005, 01:18 PM']How do you rule out rationalism?

Mystical theology isn't about emotions or intellect, it transcends both, because it is a participation in God's uncreated energies.

You are a rationalist, and that is why you fear what you cannot understand.
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RESPONSE:

Indeed. I try to stay rational and live in the real universe. Some don't and become "illusion dwellers."

But just out of curiosity, how does one propose to "participate in God's uncreated energies." If God didn't create these energies, who are you saying did?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 6 2005, 11:44 AM']RESPONSE:

Indeed. I try to stay rational and live in the real universe. Some don't and become "illusion dwellers."

But just out of curiosity, how does one propose to "participate in God's uncreated energies." 

[. . .]
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It is a gift of God. Now one of the prerequisites for its reception, which also involves a further gift of God, is the life of virtue, but the life of virtue is not itself the vision of the uncreated light.

The real question is: Does mystical prayer involve man's imagination?

Of course East and West answer this question differently, and a modernist answers the question in a way that has no connection whatsoever with the Christian tradition, because he as reduced reality to thought.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 6 2005, 11:44 AM']RESPONSE:

[. . .]

If God didn't create these energies, who are you saying did?
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The energies are God. They are God as He exists outside of His imparticipable essence. In other words, they are God for us and in us.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 6 2005, 02:01 PM']It is a gift of God.  Now one of the prerequisites for its reception, which also involves a further gift of God, is the life of virtue, but the life of virtue is not itself the vision of the uncreated light. 

The real question is:  Does mystical prayer involve man's imagination?

Of course East and West answer this question differently, and a modernist answers the question in a way that has no connection whatsoever with the Christian tradition, because he as reduced reality to thought.
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RESPONSE:

Yes. Undoubtedly mystical prayer involves man's imagination. His very vivid imagination!

And I'd certainly vote for reducing reality to thought rather than imagination.

[Semperviva]

Les, the nature of illusion is a kindof deceit, where we lose what is real...whereas revelation or illumination in contemplation is the opposite, it opens more of [b]what is [/b]

-------"If you seek the kernel, then you must break the shell. And likewise, if you would know the reality of Nature, you must destroy the appearance, and the farther you go beyond the appearance, the nearer you will be to the essence."

_______________

off topic- i just like this:
"Whoever possesses God in their being, has him in a divine manner, and he shines out to them in all things; for them all things taste of God and in all things it is God's image that they see."

Edited July 6, 2005 by Semperviva

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 6 2005, 01:14 PM']RESPONSE:

Yes. Undoubtedly mystical prayer involves man's imagination. His very vivid imagination!

And I'd certainly vote for reducing reality to thought rather than imagination.
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In the Byzantine tradition mystical prayer is about the negation ([i]apophasis[/i]) of all images. Thus, imagination has no place in the mystical tradition of the Eastern Church.

[philothea]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 6 2005, 04:51 PM']In the Byzantine tradition mystical prayer is about the negation ([i]apophasis[/i]) of all images.  Thus, imagination has no place in the mystical tradition of the Eastern Church.
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EXACTLY!!

(It's not just Eastern, though. )

I try not to engage Les, but I have wondered if he even read the previous messages. Generally contemplation is entirely without images or concepts. How could that be from the imagination?

Oh well.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jul 6 2005, 04:42 PM']Les, the nature of illusion is a kindof deceit, where we lose what is real...whereas revelation or illumination in contemplation is the opposite, it opens more of [b]what is [/b] 

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RESPONSE:

Please provide evidence that "illumination" differs from "illusion."