Mystical Theology

[Birgitta Noel]

LOL, whooops! I knew that! Sorry!

[scardella]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 27 2005, 12:13 AM']Anyone interested in mystical theology should read the [u]Philokalia[/u].


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What's that?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='scardella' date='Jun 29 2005, 07:24 AM']What's that?
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It's a five volume collection (so far only four are available in English) of writings of the Eastern Father on theology and the life of prayer. It includes the writings of men like St. Maximos the Confessor, St. Gregory of Sinai, St. Symeon the New Theologian, St. Gregory Palamas, and many others.

[infinitelord1]

hey there semperviva,

is that a picture of u?

[LittleLes]

In the Sixth Mansion are all the extraordinary favors: visions, locutions, raptures, transports, etc. (It's a very long chapter and hard to pick out a good representative quote from.) As long as what is happening is authentic, the recipient seems to be in no danger of falling. False mysticism is dangerous, though.

The Seventh Mansion is the Spiritual Betrothal, and it would not be possible to commit serious sins after that.
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RESPONSE:

So in essence, in the "Sixth Mansion" one can experience all the phenomena associated with deep self-hypnosis, is that what you are describing?

And speaking of illusions, wasn't that Spiritual Betrothal of Teresa of Avila suppose to invole a ring made of the divine prepuce, or some such story

[philothea]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 3 2005, 07:44 PM'][quote name='Philothea']
In the Sixth Mansion are all the extraordinary favors: visions, locutions, raptures, transports, etc.  (It's a very long chapter and hard to pick out a good representative quote from.)  As long as what is happening is authentic, the recipient seems to be in no danger of falling.  False mysticism is dangerous, though.

The Seventh Mansion is the Spiritual Betrothal, and it would not be possible to commit serious sins after that.
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RESPONSE:

So in essence, in the "Sixth Mansion" one can experience all the phenomena associated with deep self-hypnosis, is that what you are describing?

And speaking of illusions, wasn't that Spiritual Betrothal of Teresa of Avila suppose to invole a ring made of the divine prepuce, or some such story
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Having studied hypnosis, I am certain that the sixth mansion phenomena have nothing whatsoever in common with self-hypnosis.

And I don't know anything the later thing you mention.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='philothea' date='Jun 26 2005, 09:45 PM']

The Seventh Mansion is the Spiritual Betrothal, and it would not be possible to commit serious sins after that.
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RESPONSE:

"In addition to being held as a revered relic in several churches in Europe, the Holy Foreskin also figured in the writings of the Catholic mystics. Catherine of Sienna, one of only two female Doctors of the Catholic Church, wrote in "The Dialogue" concerning her "marriage" to Jesus. According to the good doctor, Jesus actually cut off, at the time of His circumcision, his foreskin and fashioned it into a ring with which she was married and united to Him."

Sorry. Wrong mystic.

But it would be wise to avoid "spiritual betrothals."

LittleLes

[LittleLes]

"In the Sixth Mansion are all the extraordinary favors: visions, locutions, raptures, transports, etc. (It's a very long chapter and hard to pick out a good representative quote from.) As long as what is happening is authentic, the recipient seems to be in no danger of falling. False mysticism is dangerous, though."

RESPONSE:

So in essence, in the "Sixth Mansion" one can experience all the phenomena associated with deep self-hypnosis, is that what you are describing?

[/quote]
Having studied hypnosis, I am certain that the sixth mansion phenomena have nothing whatsoever in common with self-hypnosis.

[/quote]

RESPONSE:

Then perhaps you ought to study hypnosis in greater depth.

From Scientific American, july 17, 2001:

"Using hypnosis, scientists have temporarily created hallucinations, compulsions, certain types of memory loss, false memories, and delusions in the laboratory so that these phenomena can be studied in a controlled environment."

[Socrates]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 3 2005, 08:53 PM']RESPONSE:

"In addition to being held as a revered relic in several churches in Europe, the Holy Foreskin also figured in the writings of the Catholic mystics. Catherine of Sienna, one of only two female Doctors of the Catholic Church, wrote in "The Dialogue" concerning her "marriage" to Jesus. According to the good doctor, Jesus actually cut off, at the time of His circumcision, his foreskin and fashioned it into a ring with which she was married and united to Him."

Sorry. Wrong mystic.  

But it would be wise to avoid "spiritual betrothals."

LittleLes
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This is not from the actual writings of St. Catherine, but from an anti-Catholic parody!

[quote]Apart from its physical importance as a relic, the Holy Foreskin is sometimes claimed to have appeared in a famous vision of Saint Catherine of Siena. In the vision, Jesus mystically marries her, and his amputated foreskin is given to her as a wedding ring. [b]However, this has not been traced any earlier than a seventeenth-century anti-Catholic parody, and as such is of dubious credibility.[/b][/quote]

Nice try at mockery, but this is the equivilent of using Monty Python as a source of religious history. (Especially ironic for someone who is usually so picky about the "historical accuracy" of his sources!) You have once again proven that you are not truly driven by a desire for historical accuracy, but only to use whatever means you can to atttack and mock the Catholic Church.

Really, LittleLes, have you nothing better to do with your time??

Edited July 4, 2005 by Socrates

[Semperviva]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 3 2005, 07:12 PM']hey there semperviva,

is that a picture of u?
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...LOL, Monica bELLUCCI
(italian actress played mary magdalene in the Passion,!!! watch the movie its amaaaaaazing)
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 3 2005, 10:35 PM']This is not from the actual writings of St. Catherine, but from an anti-Catholic parody!
Nice try at mockery, but this is the equivilent of using Monty Python as a source of religious history.  (Especially ironic for someone who is usually so picky about the "historical accuracy" of his sources!)  You have once again proven that you are not truly driven by a desire for historical accuracy, but only to use whatever means you can to atttack and mock the Catholic Church. 

Really, LittleLes, have you nothing better to do with your time??
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RESPONSE:

Quite possibly you are correct. This would be pushing the story of the "mythical betrothal" a bit far and combining legends. Please cite the source of your evidence. I'm told that the original account was dictated by Catherine in about 1370 in her "The Dialoge," Perhaps, when time permits' I'll read in its entirety to see what Catherine is said to have claimed.

"There is an interesting painting by Peter Paul Rubens ( 1577-1640)called "The Mystical Marriage of Catherine of Sienna," depicting one of her fantasies/visions. Catherine is standing there as a bride, extending her fourth finger to receive the wedding ring. In this case, the ring is Christ's severed foreskin, which the baby Jesus, held in his mother's arms, is attempting to tug over Catherine's finger."

However, there is the following:

"Apart from its physical importance as a relic, the Holy Foreskin is sometimes claimed to have appeared in a famous vision of (Click link for more info and facts about Saint Catherine of Siena) Saint Catherine of Siena. In the vision, Jesus mystically marries her, and his amputated foreskin is given to her as a wedding ring. However, this has not been traced any earlier than a seventeenth-century anti-Catholic parody, and as such is of dubious credibility."


And there is this from the Catholic Encyclopedia on "Mythical Marriage.":

"In many of the lives of the saints, the wide sense is intended. Here the mystical marriage consists in a vision in which Christ tells a soul that He takes it for His bride, presenting it with the customary ring, and the apparition is accompanied by a ceremony; the Blessed Virgin, saints, and angels are present "

The whole subject of auditory and visual hallucinations termed "mystic experiences," which suggest schizophrenia or extreme suggestability, is fascinating.

And in our own day, an Italian priest named Fr. Gobbi has claimed mystical "locutions" of hearing voices of Mary. Of course, when one of his "messages" seemed to be in error, he lost some creditability

[Cam42]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 4 2005, 10:11 AM']RESPONSE:

Quite possibly you are correct. This would be pushing the story of the "mythical betrothal" a bit far and combining legends.    Please cite the source of your evidence. I'm told that the original account was dictated by Catherine in about 1370 in her  "The Dialoge," Perhaps, when time permits' I'll read in its entirety to see what Catherine is said to have claimed.

"There is an interesting painting by Peter Paul Rubens ( 1577-1640)called "The Mystical Marriage of Catherine of Sienna," depicting one of her fantasies/visions. Catherine is standing there as a bride, extending her fourth finger to receive the wedding ring. In this case, the ring is Christ's severed foreskin, which the baby Jesus, held in his mother's arms, is attempting to tug over Catherine's finger."

However, there is the following:

"Apart from its physical importance as a relic, the Holy Foreskin is sometimes claimed to have appeared in a famous vision of  (Click link for more info and facts about Saint Catherine of Siena) Saint Catherine of Siena. In the vision, Jesus mystically marries her, and his amputated foreskin is given to her as a wedding ring. However, this has not been traced any earlier than a seventeenth-century anti-Catholic parody, and as such is of dubious credibility."
And there is this from the Catholic Encyclopedia on "Mythical Marriage.":

"In many of the lives of the saints, the wide sense is intended. Here the mystical marriage consists in a vision in which Christ tells a soul that He takes it for His bride, presenting it with the customary ring, and the apparition is accompanied by a ceremony; the Blessed Virgin, saints, and angels are present  "

The whole subject of auditory and visual hallucinations termed "mystic experiences,"  which suggest schizophrenia or extreme suggestability, is fascinating.

And in our own day, an Italian priest named Fr. Gobbi has claimed mystical "locutions" of hearing voices of Mary. Of course, when one of his "messages" seemed to be in error, he lost some creditability
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:rotfl: You miss the point AGAIN!!!!! :crackup:

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jul 4 2005, 11:29 AM']:rotfl:  You miss the point AGAIN!!!!!  :crackup:
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RESPONSE:

No I understand the point perfectly. It's religious illusion pretending to be reality.

[Semperviva]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 4 2005, 01:47 PM']It's religious illusion pretending to be reality.
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who's to say it's not the other way around.......that its not simply reality that you are making into illusion by nothing othere that declaring it to be false illusions......but maybe you could think about it both sides of it and not be so intolerant, hhmmm? lol

[Cam42]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 4 2005, 02:47 PM']RESPONSE:

No I understand the point perfectly. It's religious illusion pretending to be reality.
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PARTY LINE....