The Scandals

[Socrates]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='Jun 25 2005, 12:54 PM']can i just say a wee thing?  Right, we stop homosexuals from entering the Seminary.  I then said that they are hardly gonna say that they are homosexual if they wanted to get in.  I was then told that they would if they were devout Catholic men.  But surely if they were devout Catholic men, they wouldn't try to entre the seminary in the first place if they were homosexual.  So, barring those who admit their homosexuality will not get rid of the problem.
[right][snapback]623049[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Homosexuals are not supposed to be allowed into the priesthood. THis is already the rule. The problem is it's not being enforced.

Of course, there is no 100% foolproof way to make sure that no homosexuals enter the seminaries or become priests. No matter how good the cops are, there will always be criminals, and I'm not calling for an unreasonable "witchhunt" here. What I am calling for is that the rules actually be enforced, and the guilty punished.

The problem is that too many seminaries have become actively homosexual environments, in which homosexual behavior is openly practiced, and the heterodox, often homosexual, seminary administrators condone such behavior, and even actively discourage those who beleive the Church's moral teaching on this issue.
And we have the problems of bishops quite aware of the situation, and who cover up homosexual priests, rather than properly punish them (until the secular media and law gets involved).
(i.e. the "Lavender Mafia" and "Pink Palaces" situations)

This all needs to be brought to an end, the sooner the better. If these situations had not existed, we would not have had all the recent scandal.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jun 25 2005, 01:53 PM']how can you INDIRECTLY use condoms???

there's no change in the teaching of the Church, there is a change in the surgery available.  this is not the same type of surgery that was available back when your quote is from.  the surgery they were talking about was directly taking the fetus and destroying the life of it.  now, the surgery can be made as an attempt to remove a section of the tube and attempt to re-implant it in the uterus and patch up the tube.. much more sofisticated and much more ability to attempt to save the child (i'm not sure of the success rate of this, but even if it isn't very high or not at all the point is that we don't go cut the baby's head off.


[/quote]

(1) The same way you INDIRECTLY take the life of the infant.

(2) No, you are in error. Reread what the doctor is asking:

"...in answer to the question whether when the mother is in immediate danger of death and there is no other means of saving her life, a physician can with a safe conscience cause abortion NOT by destroying the child in the womb (which was explicitly condemned in the former decree), but by giving it a chance to be born alive, though NOT BEING YET VIABLE it would soon expire."

The answer was that he can not!

This is the same clinical situation today as it was when the prohibition was given. The fetus removed in the case of a tubal pregnancy still expires. And attempt at "reimplanting " is not routine nor required by Catholic morality.

But the teaching was changed, so now we have only one death instead of two.

[jezic]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jun 25 2005, 05:28 PM']Homosexuals are not supposed to be allowed into the priesthood.  THis is already the rule.  The problem is it's not being enforced.

Of course, there is no 100% foolproof way to make sure that no homosexuals enter the seminaries or become priests.  No matter how good the cops are, there will always be criminals, and I'm not calling for an unreasonable "witchhunt" here.  What I am calling for is that the rules actually be enforced, and the guilty punished.

The problem is that too many seminaries have become actively homosexual environments, in which homosexual behavior is openly practiced, and the heterodox, often homosexual, seminary administrators condone such behavior, and even actively discourage those who beleive the Church's moral teaching on this issue. 
And we have the problems of bishops quite aware of the situation, and who cover up homosexual priests, rather than properly punish them (until the secular media and law gets involved).
(i.e. the "Lavender Mafia" and "Pink Palaces" situations)

This all needs to be brought to an end, the sooner the better.  If these situations had not existed, we would not have had all the recent scandal.
[right][snapback]623440[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


If this is the case then we are coming from different sides. Homosexual behavior should be eradicated from society not just from seminaries. I didn't know that it happened and those should be closed immediately if it does until new administration/bishops get a handle on the situation and shut down these avenues where satan can attack.

My own idea stems from people that are afflicted with same sex attraction but do not desire it and seek to follow Christ, remain celibate and pure, and completely detach from this desire as far as is possible.


I hope it makes sense to everyone. if it doesn't, i am trying to understand.

Edited June 26, 2005 by jezic

[jezic]

gone .....

Edited June 26, 2005 by jezic

[Apotheoun]

The Magisterium of the Church in 1961 and again in 2002 determined that men with homosexual tendencies were unfit for the reception of sacred orders:

[quote]Advancement to religious vows and ordination should be barred to those who are afflicted with evil tendencies to homosexuality or pederasty, since for them the common life and the priestly ministry would constitute serious dangers. [Blessed Pope John XXIII, [u]Religiosorum Institutio[/u], Part 2, Section 30, no. 4, issued 2 February 1961 through the Sacred Congregation for Religious][/quote]

[quote]Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments

Official Response on the Possibility of Ordaining Men with Homosexual Tendencies

Prot. N. 886/02/0

Vatican City, May 16, 2002

Most Reverend Excellency:

The Congregation for Clergy has sent this Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments your Excellency's letter, asking us to clarify the possibility that men with homosexual tendencies be able to receive priestly ordination.

This Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, conscious of the experience resulting from many instructed causes for the purpose of obtaining dispensation from the obligations that derive from Holy Ordination, and after due consultation with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, expresses its judgment as follows:

[b]Ordination to the diaconate and the priesthood of homosexual men or men with homosexual tendencies is absolutely inadvisable and imprudent and, from the pastoral point of view, very risky. A homosexual person, or one with a homosexual tendency is not, therefore, fit to receive the sacrament of Holy Orders.[/b]

I take the opportunity to send you my most cordial greetings.

Yours sincerely in the Lord
Your Most Reverend Excellency

Jorge A. Card. Medina Estévez
Prefect[/quote]

[Socrates]

[quote name='jezic' date='Jun 26 2005, 12:58 PM']If this is the case then we are coming from different sides. Homosexual behavior should be eradicated from society not just from seminaries. I didn't know that it happened and those should be closed immediately if it does until new administration/bishops get a handle on the situation and shut down these avenues where satan can attack.

My own idea stems from people that are afflicted with same sex attraction but do not desire it and seek to follow Christ, remain celibate and pure, and completely detach from this desire as far as is possible.
I hope it makes sense to everyone. if it doesn't, i am trying to understand.
[right][snapback]624366[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

What do you disagree with?
Do you disagree with the Church's teaching on this matter?

Those with disordered inclinations are unfit for the priesthood.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jun 26 2005, 02:08 PM']Those with disordered inclinations are unfit for the priesthood.
[right][snapback]624609[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
I agree, and the Vatican has already indicated that men with homosexual tendencies are not to be ordained.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='jezic' date='Jun 26 2005, 12:58 PM']
If this is the case then we are coming from different sides. Homosexual behavior should be eradicated from society not just from seminaries. I didn't know that it happened and those should be closed immediately if it does until new administration/bishops get a handle on the situation and shut down these avenues where satan can attack.

RESPONSE:

"Homosexual behavior should be eradicated from society"

Perhaps you would want to reconsider that recommendation. Given that homosexual orientation is "natural" to some people, it can never be "eradicated." Hitler tried to eradicate it along with several ethnic groups as I recall.

[Aloysius]

it isn't natural to anyone, it is disordered and unnatural. i should know.

of course, when a homosexual exhibits his natural desire to be free from homosexuality (not uncommon even without "pressure from religion") you'd probably call it repression

[Guest Providence]

Littleles,

With all due respect, I have a comment and a question. In response to your mentioning of an article in The Oregonian, as a fellow Oregonian, I'd hope that you would take what that liberal newspaper puts out with a grain of salt. I'm using the term "liberal" to indicate that it has no desire to put out the truth or even to report both sides of a story only the side that you seem to sit on.

Now that was my comment, here is my question; what parish to you belong to so that I may stay far away from that one?

This may sound rather harsh but unfortunately it's my desire, as a convert to the Faith, to stay as close to the Truth and as far from falsehoods as possible. This is not an attempt to locate you out but to make sure that I don't fall into the same traps you seem to have fallen into.

Littleles, I will continue to pray for you and your search for enlightenment. May God one day get through to your harden heart.

In Christ,

Providence.

[Didacus]

We keep talking about the scandals of the Catholic Church, but after this thread had started I went reminiscing about hte 80s a bit. i was pretty young in that decade, but I remembered a few things aoubt those teleevangelists...

Remember the teleevangelists? There must be a few of these around still? But can't be as widespread as the 80s for sure...

How many sex scandals did the leaders of those 'churches' provoke? Those boobee-files seemed to stumble over one-antoher tyring to outdue the scandal the other did. You know, when you look around and crunch a few numbers, the scandals of the Catholic Church is no worse than scandals from other denominations.

But why does the press agonize on the Catholic Church then? hmmmm.... i don't really know for sure, but there is most certainly a bias there somewhere (of which LittleLes is obviously a poster child, but let's not feed the trolls anymore shall we?).

Anyways, that's all I really had to say. Back to the debate at hand. I agree that homosexual tendencies adds to the severity of disorder of the indivicual and thus should not be ordained. Those ordianed should be rehabilitated if possible, if not then removed from office.