Guest Eremite Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 [quote]Lust is disordered[/quote] Yes, lust is disordered. But the question is [i]how[/i]: [quote]Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure.[/quote] Lust is a disorder of temperance, not a disorder of the object of sexual attraction. [quote] "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."[/quote] Here, again, masturbation is said to be a disordered "action", not a disordered object of the sexual appetite. Homosexuality is unique from heterosexual lust in that it goes beyond a disorder of temperance. It replaces the natural object of sexual affection with an unnatural object, namely, a person of the same sex. Heterosexual lust is a disordered desire for something good in itself (ie, sexual relations between man and woman), whereas homosexual lust is a disordered desire for something wrong in itself (ie, sexual relations between persons of the same sex). [quote]people without same sex attractions can very easily have disordered thoughts and actions[/quote] Of course they can. And depending upon the nature and extent of those disordered thoughts and actions, they too are barred from the priesthood (eg, pedophiles). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 [quote]Here, again, masturbation is said to be a disordered "action", not a disordered object of the sexual appetite. [/quote] The homosexual action is disordered The action of masturbation is disordered The inclination to masturbate is disordered The inclination to same sex attraction is disordered You are making distinctions that do not exist. There are not degrees of disordered sins or inclination. You cannot say "masturbation and lust is bad but it sure ain't as big a sin as homosexual acts" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 [quote]The homosexual action is disordered The action of masturbation is disordered [/quote] We are not speaking of homosexual "actions". We are speaking of homosexual affections. The object of homosexual lust (whether it is carried out or not) is unnatural. The object of heterosexual lust (whether it is carried out or not) is natural. [quote]The inclination to masturbate is disordered The inclination to same sex attraction is disordered[/quote] You are here confusing an action with an "attraction". The inclination to homosexual (or heterosexual) [i]actions[/i] are both disordered, because they are both inclinations to the same thing, that is, unlawful sexual pleasure. The inclination to homosexual [i]attraction[/i], however, is uniquely disordered. The object of this attraction is a person of the same sex, which is an unnatural object of sexual attraction. The object of heterosexual attraction is a person of the opposite sex, which is a natural object of sexual attraction. Heterosexual masturbation/lust is a disordered (inordinate) desire for something natural (ie, relations with a woman). It is a disorder of temperance. Homosexual acts/lust is a disordered desire for something unnatural (ie, relations with a person of the same sex). It is more than a disorder of temperance; it is a disorder of object. [quote] There are not degrees of disordered sins or inclination.[/quote] Of course there are. One man's disordered inclination may be limited to pornography, while another man's disordered inclination may extend to rape. [quote]You cannot say "masturbation and lust is bad but it sure ain't as big a sin as homosexual acts" [/quote] Again, this discussion is not about "acts". As I made clear at the beginning, a homosexual man's chastity has nothing to do with his suitability for the priesthood. The object of homosexual affection is unnatural. The object of heterosexual affection is natural, but disordered in temperance. This is an important distinction, because wanting too much of something (eg, relations with a woman) is of a different character than wanting something unnatural (eg, relations with a hamburger). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jezic Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 how can you distinguish between the magnitudes of sin in God's eyes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 [quote name='jezic' date='Jun 24 2005, 03:50 PM']how can you distinguish between the magnitudes of sin in God's eyes? [right][snapback]622004[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Because if we didn't, murdering 6,000 people would be no different than stealing a penny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 24 2005, 03:53 PM']Because if we didn't, murdering 6,000 people would be no different than stealing a penny. [right][snapback]622010[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Didn't one of our Protestant friends recently make this claim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 The distinction that Eremite is making between [i]natural[/i] and [i]unnatural[/i] disordered inclinations and desires is traditional within Catholic moral theology. He is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 (edited) [quote name='hot stuff' date='Jun 24 2005, 03:30 PM']The homosexual action is disordered The action of masturbation is disordered The inclination to masturbate is disordered The inclination to same sex attraction is disordered You are making distinctions that do not exist. There are not degrees of disordered sins or inclination. You cannot say "masturbation and lust is bad but it sure ain't as big a sin as homosexual acts" [right][snapback]621984[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Actually Jamie you most cetianly can, Fornication is not as bad as adultery, adultery is not as Bad as homosexual sex, homosexual sex is not as bad as sex with a prepubescent child. Where would you get the Idea that one cannot have degrees of disordered sin, there are degrees of sin all over the place. Lying about sleeping in late is not as bad as lying under oath etc. I think also you must rrealize that no one defines who they are by materbation, ther are Hetrosexuals and homosexuals but home many people are monosexuals? Edited June 24, 2005 by Don John of Austria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 I think the end times must be near, because Apotheoun, Socrates, Erimite and I all actually agree! This is shocking in the extreme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jun 24 2005, 05:01 PM']I think the end times must be near, because Apotheoun, Socrates, Erimite and I all actually agree! This is shocking in the extreme. [right][snapback]622078[/snapback][/right] [/quote] People have been posting some funny quotes today!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 The sin of Sodom has traditionally been named as one of the four sins that cries to heaven for vengeance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jun 24 2005, 05:01 PM']I think the end times must be near, because Apotheoun, Socrates, Erimite and I all actually agree! This is shocking in the extreme. [right][snapback]622078[/snapback][/right] [/quote] If hot stuff agrees too, I'm heading for the hills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 24 2005, 04:03 PM']The distinction that Eremite is making between [i]natural[/i] and [i]unnatural[/i] disordered inclinations and desires is traditional within Catholic moral theology. He is correct. [right][snapback]622027[/snapback][/right] [/quote] RESPONSE: Yes, the distinction is indeed "traditional." However, that has nothing to do with whether it is correct or even relevant. For example, rape is "natural." Masturbation is "unnatural." But somehow "unnatural" lusts are worse than natural ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 24 2005, 05:06 PM']The sin of Sodom has traditionally been named as one of the four sins that cries to heaven for vengeance. [right][snapback]622084[/snapback][/right] [/quote] RESPONES: Careful now! What prescisely was the sin of Sodom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 [quote]I think the end times must be near, because Apotheoun, Socrates, Erimite and I all actually agree! [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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