Semperviva Posted June 24, 2005 Author Share Posted June 24, 2005 George Weigel : Sex, as often experienced in today’s sexual free–fire zone, is instinctive and impersonal. But that kind of sex does not rise above the level of animal sexuality, which is also instinctive and impersonal. Sex that is an expression of self–giving love, not a use of the other for temporary gratification, is the only sex worthy of human beings. Chastity, on this analysis, is what John Paul called the "integrity of love," (oh! oh! tear, sadness ) the virtue that makes it possible for one to love another as a person. We are made free, Wojtyla argues, so that we can make a free gift of ourselves to others; we are free so that we can love freely, and thus love truly. [free to be free, cool] Genuine freedom—the freedom that disposes of itself in self–giving—is the context of a genuinely humanistic sexual ethic. The theological core of John Paul’s "theology of the body" is his profoundly sacramental apprehension of reality. Our embodiedness as male and female is not an accident of evolutionary biology, he insists. Rather, that embodiedness and the mutuality built into it express some of the deepest truths of the world, and teach us something about the world’s Creator. John Paul even goes so far as to propose that sexual love within the bond of marital fidelity is an icon of the interior life of God the Holy Trinity, a community of mutual self–donation and mutual receptivity. [i]Here it iiiiiis... Just love this part...[/i] [i][b]Thus sexual love, within the bond of Christian marriage, is an act of worship!!!![/b][/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 The sexual action is only one aspect of marriage. Why are you putting so much emphasis on the physical aspect? There is also a sacramental, and unitive bond, which not only applies to the sexual union, but the overall health of the marriage. [quote name='CCC #1604']God who created man out of love also calls him to love the fundamental and innate vocation of every human being. For man is created in the image and likeness of God who is himself love.90 Since God created him man and woman, their mutual love becomes an image of the absolute and unfailing love with which God loves man. It is good, very good, in the Creator's eyes. And this love which God blesses is intended to be fruitful and to be realized in the common work of watching over creation: "And God blessed them, and God said to them: 'Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it.'"[/quote] [quote name='CCC #2341']The virtue of chastity comes under the cardinal virtue of temperance, which seeks to permeate the passions and appetites of the senses with reason.[/quote] It is not always appropriate to engage in sex. Even married people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semperviva Posted June 24, 2005 Author Share Posted June 24, 2005 OK people: I'm going to the beach now-when I get back I expect someone to have answered my [i]AIDS-preventing-condom-usage-in-hypothetical-sacramental-marriage[/i] kweschun... please? I actually think such a scenario is very possible, especially with the huge growth of Catholicism in Africa and the AIDS issues there...you know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 [quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 24 2005, 10:07 AM']OK people: I'm going to the beach now-when I get back I expect someone to have answered my [i]AIDS-preventing-condom-usage-in-hypothetical-sacramental-marriage[/i] kweschun... please? I actually think such a scenario is very possible, especially with the huge growth of Catholicism in Africa and the AIDS issues there...you know? [right][snapback]621458[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Don't have sex......temperence is a virtue.....and continence is a part of temperence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semperviva Posted June 24, 2005 Author Share Posted June 24, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Jun 24 2005, 09:14 AM']Don't have sex......temperence is a virtue.....and continence is a part of temperence. [right][snapback]621460[/snapback][/right] [/quote] huh? no comprendo... ok let me clarify... say you have a Catholic couple engaged in Africa. they find out ONE of them has AIDS becuse its so easy to contract in many ways there (careless doctors, etc). so, this couple is in love gettting married int he church, etc, and what do they do? can they use a condom to prevent AIDS transmission- although i doubt condoms actually do this, but the point is can they block like reproductive fluids for a health reasons??? NFP was ok to use for health or finance...so how bout condoms with a health situation...? lol, the beach can wait 5 minutes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photosynthesis Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='Jun 24 2005, 09:35 AM']RESPONSE: No. Oral contraceptives are most definitely not a barrier method of birth control! "Birth control pills fool the body into acting as if it's pregnant. Birth control pills, also called oral contraceptives (OCs), come in two forms: the combined OC, a combination of two synthetic hormones, estrogen and progestin; and, the minipill, which consists solely of progestin. Combined OCs are more commonly used, though both kinds are available through health care providers. The combination pill prevents ovulation by suppressing the natural hormones in the body that would stimulate the ovary to release an egg. By taking this estrogen throughout the month, you insure that no egg will be developed or released for that cycle. Progestin thickens the cervical mucus, hindering the movement of sperm. Progestin also prevents the uterus's lining from developing normally; so, if an egg were fertilized, implantation is unlikely. " [right][snapback]621387[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Everyone knows how oral contraceptives work. However, while the barrier is invisible, it is still there. Condoms prevent the egg and the sperm from meeting. Spermicide kills the sperm before it gets to the egg. The Pill prevents the woman's body from releasing eggs, and makes the uterus inhospitable to a fertilized egg (a human LIFE). How NOT open to life can you get? Each of these methods somehow prevents LIFE in a way abstinence does not, because abstinence does not put an unnatural, artificial barrrier (chemical or physical) between the man and the woman. It is normal and natural to abstain from sex sometimes. It's not normal, or natual, to use artificial contraception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Jun 24 2005, 09:03 AM']The sexual action is only one aspect of marriage. Why are you putting so much emphasis on the physical aspect? There is also a sacramental, and unitive bond, which not only applies to the sexual union, but the overall health of the marriage. [snip] [right][snapback]621453[/snapback][/right] [/quote] i entirely agree that sex is only an aspect, and by no means the most important one... or even an important one. but it is a reality. How can a couple sleeping in the same bed 365 days in a year be expected not to eventually give in to mutual temptation? Agreed, sex is not always appropriate between married couples - no question there. But I am only trying to understand the 'chance of procreation being a required element'. It has always been a bit of question mark to me, i could never fully understand it. I can understand that sex should be carried out in a form that should conform to the possibility of procreation - hence why homosexuality can never be acceptable. But how can engaging in a sexual relation, in a valid marriage, in a form that normally should give the chance to produce offsprings be wrong by the fact that one of the partners is unable to conceive? Are sterile married couples bound to chastity and why? Be fruitful and multiply... Even though a woman does not have a utterus... does that prevent her from trying? (bit of a silly question there, I know) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 [quote name='Didacus' date='Jun 24 2005, 10:24 AM']i entirely agree that sex is only an aspect, and by no means the most important one... or even an important one. but it is a reality. How can a couple sleeping in the same bed 365 days in a year be expected not to eventually give in to mutual temptation? Agreed, sex is not always appropriate between married couples - no question there. But I am only trying to understand the 'chance of procreation being a required element'. It has always been a bit of question mark to me, i could never fully understand it. I can understand that sex should be carried out in a form that should conform to the possibility of procreation - hence why homosexuality can never be acceptable. But how can engaging in a sexual relation, in a valid marriage, in a form that normally should give the chance to produce offsprings be wrong by the fact that one of the partners is unable to conceive? Are sterile married couples bound to chastity and why? Be fruitful and multiply... Even though a woman does not have a utterus... does that prevent her from trying? (bit of a silly question there, I know) [right][snapback]621470[/snapback][/right] [/quote] The key to the first part is temptation. It is not a mutual temptation. It is a mutual gift. What is the point of sex from a purely biological standpoint. Continuation of the species. That is why the procreative action is always a part. It is in conjunction with the Natural Law. If the hysterectomy takes place after the marriage is sacramentally sealed, then they are to live a chaste life. Part of living a chaste life is a continent life. Just follow what the Church teaches, if you are Catholic. Yes, sterile couples are bound to chastity. Why? Because all men, regardless of their state in life are called to chastity. There is more to the marriage than sex. Your last statement is a bit confusing. Be fruitful and multiply. Yes. But when one is not fruitful, then one cannot multiply. One should accept one's state in life and find a prayerful way to deal with it. I think that you are looking at the sexual union as an end. It is not. It is the means to an end. What is that end? It is procreation, union, and sacramental bonding. That is why those who are knowingly sterile before marriage must get dispensation in order to get married. Once inside the marriage, one can most certainly be unchaste, even with one's partner. How, there are many circumstances....this is but one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Jun 24 2005, 09:52 AM'][snip] Once inside the marriage, one can most certainly be unchaste, even with one's partner. How, there are many circumstances....this is but one. [right][snapback]621503[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I agree... and thank you for your reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 [quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 24 2005, 10:20 AM']huh? no comprendo... ok let me clarify... say you have a Catholic couple engaged in Africa. they find out ONE of them has AIDS becuse its so easy to contract in many ways there (careless doctors, etc). so, this couple is in love gettting married int he church, etc, and what do they do? can they use a condom to prevent AIDS transmission- although i doubt condoms actually do this, but the point is can they block like reproductive fluids for a health reasons??? NFP was ok to use for health or finance...so how bout condoms with a health situation...? lol, the beach can wait 5 minutes... [right][snapback]621465[/snapback][/right] [/quote] If they are married and there is a dubium as to the ability to procreate, then the marriage will be disallowed. They would need to get a dispensation to get married. AIDS falls into this category. Can they use a condom? No. They cannot. They most likely won't be able to get married, but if they do receive a dispensation, then they would have to live in continence. There is no justification, whatever the reason for artificial birth control. Again, you are looking at NFP as a contraceptive method. It is most certainly not that. Look to my above post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Jun 24 2005, 10:16 AM'] If they are married and there is a dubium as to the ability to procreate, then the marriage will be disallowed. They would need to get a dispensation to get married. AIDS falls into this category. quote] RESPONSE: I'm afraid you are in error. Impotence, not sterility, is an impediment to the Sacrament of Marriage. An infertile male and female may marry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semperviva Posted June 24, 2005 Author Share Posted June 24, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Jun 24 2005, 10:16 AM']If they are married and there is a dubium as to the ability to procreate, then the marriage will be disallowed. They would need to get a dispensation to get married... There is no justification, whatever the reason for artificial birth control. Again, you are looking at NFP as a contraceptive method. It is most certainly not that. Look to my above post. [right][snapback]621530[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I only meant that they woulden't be using it as birth control and I don't see NFP as a just one other contraceptive method Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reelguy227 Posted June 24, 2005 Share Posted June 24, 2005 (edited) Sterile couples can never engage in Gods act of love ???? What kind of carp is that ? Sterile couples cant help it ,give em a break and let them express in the eternal act of love ,gosh !!! This just makes me mad !!!! Edited June 24, 2005 by reelguy227 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semperviva Posted June 26, 2005 Author Share Posted June 26, 2005 (edited) [quote name='reelguy227' date='Jun 24 2005, 03:58 PM']Sterile couples can never engage in Gods act of love ???? What kind of carp is that ? Sterile couples cant help it ,give em a break This just makes me mad !!!! [right][snapback]622018[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Haha! If that were true we'd never have had... ...Isaac! [color=green][i]...and then no Judeism![/i][/color] ...Mary! [color=blue][i]...and then no Jesus! LOL[/i][/color] Edited June 26, 2005 by Semperviva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 [quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 26 2005, 12:57 AM']Haha! If that were true we'd never have had... ...Isaac! [color=green][i]...and then no Judeism![/i][/color] ...Mary! [color=blue][i]...and then no Jesus! LOL[/i][/color] [right][snapback]623949[/snapback][/right] [/quote] RESPONSE: You are assuming the factual historical nature of the biblical legends then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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