Salvation!

[dairygirl4u2c]

both dialogues are so easy for the person creating htem to lead the other into what they want, like a straw man sorta.
both sides' arguments have merits to them.
you don't have to get into straw man pretenses like those dialologues... both sides have merit to say the other acts weird.
the actual theology needs debated more, the above rhetoric type stuff, in my mind i view it as, less.

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1629221' date='Aug 16 2008, 08:21 PM']both dialogues are so easy for the person creating htem to lead the other into what they want, like a straw man sorta.
both sides' arguments have merits to them.
you don't have to get into straw man pretenses like those dialologues... both sides have merit to say the other acts weird.
the actual theology needs debated more, the above rhetoric type stuff, in my mind i view it as, less.[/quote]

True.

You see, I just wanted to show Anna there is more than one way to view things.

She makes an absolute mockery of trust God and his Son Jesus Christ.

I make an absolute mockery of thinking we have anything to do with salvation, and that it's by God's grace alone that we are saved. No matter how holy you are, nothing gets you into heaven except God's gift.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1629840' date='Aug 17 2008, 06:21 PM']True.

You see, I just wanted to show Anna there is more than one way to view things.

She makes an absolute mockery of trust God and his Son Jesus Christ.

I make an absolute mockery of thinking we have anything to do with salvation, and that it's by God's grace alone that we are saved. No matter how holy you are, nothing gets you into heaven except God's gift.[/quote]

Anna is mocking easy believism, which should be mocked, but she is not mocking Jesus. Jesus mocked easy believism too when he gave us the story of the prodigal.

That grace is the cornerstone of salvation is the very foundation of good theology. "The grace of the Holy Spirit confers upon us the righteousness of God. Uniting us by faith and Baptism to the Passion and Resurrection of Christ, the Spirit that makes us sharers in his life.

Like conversion, justification has two aspects. Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, and so accepts forgiveness and righteousness from on high.

Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man." CCC 2017-2019

If you say that you have nothing to do with your own salvation than you are making a "mockery" out of both Jesus' own words and St. Paul as well. A simple theology 101 study of the new covenant shows this. Man is indeed called to cooperate with the grace of God.

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='1629865' date='Aug 17 2008, 03:36 PM']Anna is mocking easy believism, which should be mocked, but she is not mocking Jesus. Jesus mocked easy believism too when he gave us the story of the prodigal.

That grace is the cornerstone of salvation is the very foundation of good theology. "The grace of the Holy Spirit confers upon us the righteousness of God. Uniting us by faith and Baptism to the Passion and Resurrection of Christ, the Spirit that makes us sharers in his life.

Like conversion, justification has two aspects. Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, and so accepts forgiveness and righteousness from on high.

Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man." CCC 2017-2019

If you say that you have nothing to do with your own salvation than you are making a "mockery" out of both Jesus' own words and St. Paul as well. A simple theology 101 study of the new covenant shows this. Man is indeed called to cooperate with the grace of God.[/quote]

Salvation is a gift from God. God gives us the gift of repentance and salvation. He turned my heart to cleave onto him and trust in his promises.

Sure, outwardly, I cleave onto God, but only because God has turned my heart to him, because I see how evil I am, and how much I need him to make the difference between me and my unholiness, which is ever before me.

Only God can open people's eyes. Just think of all the atheists who have been told they are evil by the entire Christian community? Why haven't they turned to Christ and God?

Answer, God hasn't turned their hearts. . .

Even Acts chapter 2 says

[quote]Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. Acts 2:47[/quote]

I don't save me, God adds me to the church, because he deemed I should be saved, which brings such joy and repentance to me, because I don't believe I should be saved. I should go to hell for all my evils. I am the worst of sinners!

Edited August 18, 2008 by MakeYouThink

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1629840' date='Aug 17 2008, 03:21 PM']True.

You see, I just wanted to show Anna there is more than one way to view things.

She makes an absolute mockery of trust God and his Son Jesus Christ.

I make an absolute mockery of thinking we have anything to do with salvation, and that it's by God's grace alone that we are saved. No matter how holy you are, nothing gets you into heaven except God's gift.[/quote]

fair enough

[dairygirl4u2c]

sometimes it's the right thing to insist the other side is wrong.
i don't see saying makeyouthink is wrong is right here though.

the two versues i think of a lot, other than what i've posted so far,,, in regards to a prot who says our works cannot add to our justification...

"by works you have been saved, not of works lest any man should boast"

and isiah 64, our works are like rags to God:
" 6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away."

you could say.... this is referring to works and sanctification without the grace of God... but the plain meaning is that works in no way add to it.
i think there's verses that say the works with grace and justifiation are the way to go,, that sanctification is tied with justiication... btu it's not clearly the case.

i think pepole assume they have to act insistently if their faith means anything. but, faith in lesser things isn't as imporatnt, and i thik most need a better understanding of what faith really means.